Apology from Richard Dawkins (Yes Really).

[kiki5711]

Better late than never!

I'd still like to achieve one further concession and get all those deleted posts back.

You don't get it?? He doesn't dedicate the book to "his daughter" for whom he sheds apparently deep tears, he don't dedicate it to his wife, to future scientific community in search of truth BUT to snot asses Josh Timonen!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that is a question that belong on the front page of The Enquirer!!!! The gossip paper of the west.

[jez9999]

Something I've been thinking about re: undesirable content for the Foundation; whatever happened to good old disclaimers?

It's more important that 1 or 2 people not accidentally come across an open forum and attribute the (hypothetical) words of some (hypothetical) person to the Foundation, thereby bringing the Foundation into disrepute - because said people will probably copy and paste the words into a newspaper headline or something, ignoring any disclaimer - than that there be the opportunity for open dialogue.

This attitude seems to be painfully common among certain mindsets. I've had this precise argument with certain people regarding the Pirate Party UK forum, and lost.

[Fizzle]

Something I've been thinking about re: undesirable content for the Foundation; whatever happened to good old disclaimers?

It's more important that 1 or 2 people not accidentally come across an open forum and attribute the (hypothetical) words of some (hypothetical) person to the Foundation, thereby bringing the Foundation into disrepute - because said people will probably copy and paste the words into a newspaper headline or something, ignoring any disclaimer - than that there be the opportunity for open dialogue.

This attitude seems to be painfully common among certain mindsets. I've had this precise argument with certain people regarding the Pirate Party UK forum, and lost.

The fault of a few to the detriment of the many...not my style.

[MrJonno]

Well Richard Dawkins wants to take the foundation in a way that he deems best but I would prefer he didn't. That of course is his right and it may even be for the best.

The apology for how the old forum users/moderators was treated is very welcome and does restore my 'faith' (hate that word) in him.

I think it does show that Dawkins is a nearly 70 year old professor not a hip cool with-it personality. In some of his books he does look down on some aspects of modern culture but so do all 70 year olds so I don't hold that against him. I just can't imagine Dawkins enjoying Battlestar Galcatica, Star Wars or any not so hard sci fi which I suspect the majority of his readers so

[Don't Panic]

I doubt it will ever be provided, since it doesn't exist. Maybe this would just be too much to come out and admit.

So says Kevin Ronayne, the most unscrupulous and dishonest moderator in history.

You have earned yourself a 24h break from posting. Please refrain from attacking forum members.

I don't see how this ban can be substantiated. Calling someone " unscrupulous and dishonest" could very well be a fact, and does not constitute an attack on someone's personality. I don't understand the history between these two, and perhaps that might have an affect on your judgment, but this kind of flippant banning makes me think twice about whether I want to be here, or that my honest opinions are welcome.

This ban was anything but flippant, it was a continuation of a string of offensive posts after the poster had been warned to stop, many of which contained much stronger personal attacks than this.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 53#p366253
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 36#p366336
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 10#p366410
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 78#p366478
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 60#p366560
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 74#p366574
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 15#p366815

[Skinny Puppy]

I held off replying immediately to Richard’s apology because I wanted time to think it over and not fire off a rant based upon gut feelings. Now that I’ve had time to consider what he’s addressed in his apology, I have a few comments to make.

1 – I applaud Richard for having the intestinal fortitude to make a public apology for the unfortunate events of the past week.

2 – We’re all human and while I would have expected Richard to have researched the facts prior to his ‘outrage’ post, I can and do accept that we can all fly off the handle periodically and let our emotions rule our brains rather than logic and reason.

3 – I certainly accept his view of how he wants his forum to proceed in a new direction. It is his ‘baby’ after all and in the end it’s up to him as to how it should be run, the direction it should take and what subjects he feels are apropos and which ones he’d prefer not to have his name associated with.

4 – He did acknowledge the dedicated work of his moderators and kudos to him for doing that. I truly believe that he is honestly grateful for the hard work and the many hours they devoted of their personal time, without pay, to ensure that the forum was run and kept on track within the guidelines of the original goals and vision that he had for his forum.

5 – I also appreciate that he’s under a lot of pressure with an extremely hectic schedule and trying to keep up with the developments that have transpired over the previous week would be taxing to anyone that has the luxury of time to spend hours perusing the Internet, let alone a man who is traveling and has a busy and active speaking tour on his hands.

6 – He has taken full responsibility for the events that transpired. The ‘buck stops at him’ and I give him credit for taking all of the blame, even when things were done without (possibly) his knowledge. That is the sign of a true gentleman and a true leader.

7 – I don’t (nor ever would) expect him to publically chastise Josh, which would be unfair under any conditions for any employer to subject an employee to public ridicule. That would be more demeaning to him rather than it would be to Josh. He may have spoken privately to Josh, that’s something we’ll never be privy to.

However, I do have a few reservations.

1 – Despite the fact that he has now acknowledged that he has checked sources, blogs and so on, he still stands firmly behind Josh and will give no quarter with regards to accepting that Josh was the cause of this fiasco. He will accept no criticisms of Josh… period.

2 – His letter of apology could have been worded without heaping praise upon Josh since we’ve all accepted that Josh acted like a tin god and deleted a number of posts that are now (as far as I know) lost forever. Josh also destroyed and purged all evidence of his nefarious deeds to protect himself with no regard for the repercussions it would have on either the membership or the moderators. He instituted his own brand of censorship which Richard vilifies X-tian groups for those very same types of draconian actions. While the evidence is partially gone, some of it was saved and it is available to Richard to read if he wishes to do so. In addition, he has the word and letters of many trusted and honorable members and ex-mods of the forum that state the events as they happened in a true chronological order. It appears that despite all of these verifiable accusations against Josh, he accepts Josh’s word at face value and will tolerate no dissenting voices.

3 – What appeared to be a small blip on the radar grew into colossal proportions and was definitely hurting his reputation and was becoming a feeding frenzy for Christian groups.

4 – Rather than dealing with the tasks at hand (his current agenda) he was being questioned about this fiasco and rather than addressing his agenda, his time was now being taken up in a defensive posture to ward-off criticism of his lack of action in dealing with a huge rift in the atheist community.

5 – His empire was being destroyed from within rather than by the prayers of Christian groups. Had he remained steadfast and unmovable, the damage would have continued unabated. His only hope of saving this collapse of his prestige and his foundation’s reputation would be to issue an apology and hope that everyone would accept it, believe it and return to his camp of loyal followers and therefore remove the ammunition that the X-tian groups and news outlets were using to tarnish his reputation.

6 – He gave Josh the keys to the kingdom and despite Josh’s total disregard for even the basic tenants of human decency, Richard has left the keys in Josh’s hands and trusts (knows) that josh will continue to do his ‘good and noble’ work on his (Richard’s) behalf.

7 – His new and improved forum will be subject to the whims of Josh. Cross him and you’ll be immediately suspended, your entire posting history will be destroyed and you’ll be banned forever. Josh will not, under any conditions whatsoever, accept any criticisms. You’ll tow his party line or you’ll be ostracized from the community.

8 – It will not be a ‘free thinking oasis’ it’ll be an oasis of what Josh deems to be acceptable. You will not have the freedom to speak your mind, you’ll have to learn ‘Josh Speak’ otherwise your time on the new forum will be brief and your departure swift!

If Richard taught me one thing it is this… I should and must look at everything that’s presented to me with a critical eye and a skeptical mind, until I know, to the best of my knowledge, what the truth actually is. As an ex-Christian (a rabid foam-at-the-mouth Pentecostal) I accepted everything on faith and faith alone. I no longer do that. I now subject everything I’m told or read to scrutiny.

Richard’s apology also comes under that scrutiny. I therefore take it with some doubts as to its sincerity. It may well be an honest exposé of the truth… on the other hand; he could also be an example of propagandist damage control in the hopes to stem the tide of dissent within Richard’s ranks of previously loyal followers.

Until the truth is known, I remain, as always, a skeptic.

[Arse]

Personally, I'm just taking it at face value. He fired off a post in temper, then apologised when he'd cooled down. Apology accepted, afaic.

[Elessarina]

Personally, I'm just taking it at face value. He fired off a post in temper, then apologised when he'd cooled down. Apology accepted, afaic.

It's been like being told off in school.. what a funny week!

Headmaster Dawkins!

[HrothgirOD]

I'd not expect him to publically break the little lad on the wheel. However, the somewhat effusive praise was a little over the top.
And as I've said, I've fired people for that level of unprofessionalism and incompetence, don't care how close they are.

[kiki5711]

I'd not expect him to publically break the little lad on the wheel. However, the somewhat effusive praise was a little over the top.
And as I've said, I've fired people for that level of unprofessionalism and incompetence, don't care how close they are.

Not if you loved the lad and dedicated your latest book to him!

[klr]

I'd not expect him to publically break the little lad on the wheel. However, the somewhat effusive praise was a little over the top.
And as I've said, I've fired people for that level of unprofessionalism and incompetence, don't care how close they are.

You know, all the praise from RD over the past few years may have gone to his head a tiny little bit. It might have impaired his sense of judgement somewhat.

[Sisifo]

My thoughts:
RD gains points for having actually read the open letters, and researched and tried to understand the other part opinion, after he had taken one side. That's more than many do.
He gains points, as a team manager, for defending -even when he has admitted the mistakes- his team. I would despise him if he had done the opposite. Now, if he doesn't take steps within the organization, not for the public, those points would be lost again and more.
He loses a lot of points, because the "outrage" letter is still there, as sticky. And still closed to comments, as a prepotent flag.

He lost a lot with the whole issue, so for me, he jumped backwards and has given now three steps forward. He is still behind than 10 days ago, and as other say, his next actions will put him back or not where he was.

[Blondie]

Though Richard's apology is welcomed, I have to agree with klr and NineBerry in the strongest possible terms. Richard has heaped praise on Josh to almost frightening levels, even dedicating his latest book (which I bought!) to him, on a page which maybe I'll now rip out.

This can't possibly be true.

(checks hardcover copy of The Greatest Show on Earth)

(reads publication and copyright page, facing the table of contents: "For Josh Timonen")

Fuck. It is true.

echo WTF?!

I never noticed that.

[Shrunk]

7 – His new and improved forum will be subject to the whims of Josh. Cross him and you’ll be immediately suspended, your entire posting history will be destroyed and you’ll be banned forever. Josh will not, under any conditions whatsoever, accept any criticisms. You’ll tow his party line or you’ll be ostracized from the community.

8 – It will not be a ‘free thinking oasis’ it’ll be an oasis of what Josh deems to be acceptable. You will not have the freedom to speak your mind, you’ll have to learn ‘Josh Speak’ otherwise your time on the new forum will be brief and your departure swift!

I think this remains to be seen. As far as I can tell, the moderators were pretty much given free reign on the original board, and Josh's involvement, as far as the actual content of the board, was essentially one of benign neglect. For him to wield a heavier hand in controlling the content of the new board would require a drastic change in approach.

This is what remains to me one of the more puzzling aspects of this whole affair: The decision to can the entire volunteer moderating staff. If the board has been up 2 1/2 years and has generated 85,000 topics over that time, that amounts to over 90 topics a day that, under the proposed new format, will have to be read and approved by the new moderator(s) before being posted. That seems an insurmountable task for a single person, especially if that person is also performing other technical and content related duties on the website. So I hardly see how this could function as Josh's personal empire. Clearly more help will be required, and I fail to see why the RDF would not avail themselves of the readily available and willing staff who had already acquited themselves so admirably in the task. Does Richard et al really believe the old board was functioning so poorly that a complete break with the past is required?

Nonetheless, personally, I'm encouraged enough by Richard's apology to give the new board a try and see how it works before passing judgment.

[HrothgirOD]

I'd not expect him to publically break the little lad on the wheel. However, the somewhat effusive praise was a little over the top.
And as I've said, I've fired people for that level of unprofessionalism and incompetence, don't care how close they are.

Not if you loved the lad and dedicated your latest book to him!

I'd have fired my mother. but then, I'm no fan of having my commercial rep damaged.