A secular debate about eating meat.

[Coito ergo sum]

ACK! I can't be arsed to chop up and answer point by point.

But just to address the water issue...how does water become impure? Contamination. The leading contributors to contamination? Manufacturing and processing.

In the world? Not by a long shot.

It wasn't until the last few decades that most of the world could even get pure water, before the industrial revolution in Europe, for example, it was so difficult to find pure water that people rarely drank it.

Nowadays, it's technology and purification methods that give most people their pure and drinkable water right out of the tap (in the rest). In India and Africa, where they lack such technology, they have greater instances of cholera and e.coli and all sorts of water borne diseases.

[Coito ergo sum]

I called you on your bullshit CES...I've been discussing with you long enough to know that you don't forget to cite your sources. Why don't you have the humility to simply admit it, instead of accusing me of mocking you?

I'm done letting you pick fights with me. Call me on my bullshit? Thanks, mai - you're wonderful and sweet.

Why would I not link to the source? What do you think I was purposefully trying to gain from it?

You think I was just pretending that what was in a source was my own information? Mai - I PREFER to have sources back me up. That' is better than just saying things without a source. I would RATHER have you see that I got my information from somewhere and not just come up with it out of thin air. I do tend to type these messages as I am working on other things, so I don't pretend to perfection. You can take me at my word, or not.

So, that having been said - Oh, Mai, Miss Perfect, let me prostrate myself before you, and apologize, most humbly, that I forgot to include the link that it would have been in my interest to provide. I apologize for any injury you have suffered as a result

Is your goal to "get me" on something is painfully irrelevant and minor as "posting material without linking to the source"? Or, do you want to seriously discuss the issue? Will you admit that food processing is not "all" bad, at least? There have been some very sound benefits arising from it? Or, is it just black and white to you, like McDonalds?

If that was the case, then why accuse me of mocking you?

You are reading way more into this than there is. Get over your persecution complex.

Just going by the words you choose, mai. I didn't say you mocked me, either. You accused me of "bullshit," and demanded that I humiliate myself before you because I - gasp - didn't provide a link.

[hadespussercats]

ACK! I can't be arsed to chop up and answer point by point.

But just to address the water issue...how does water become impure? Contamination. The leading contributors to contamination? Manufacturing and processing.

In the world? Not by a long shot.

It wasn't until the last few decades that most of the world could even get pure water, before the industrial revolution in Europe, for example, it was so difficult to find pure water that people rarely drank it.

Nowadays, it's technology and purification methods that give most people their pure and drinkable water right out of the tap (in the rest). In India and Africa, where they lack such technology, they have greater instances of cholera and e.coli and all sorts of water borne diseases.

Except in places like Kerala, where Coca Cola is destroying the local water supply. But hey, they can drink Coke instead.

[Coito ergo sum]

CES-- I think you might have misunderstood some of what Sisfo was saying about processed foods-- particularly points he raised about ready-to-make brownies and soy. I'm not sure, though-- I'll let him clear up the discussion points, if he cares to.

It's not that I misunderstood him per se - I think it's that we are using different definitions of the term "processed food." Maybe that's the same thing as a misunderstanding. Either way, I gave him the definition I use, which I think is the correct dictionary definition. I am not clear on what his definition is, since I can't see how one can say that Brownie Mix is not a "processed food" and at the same time claim that being served restaurant food is processed food.

I mean - here's a popular brownie mix:

Sugar, Peanut Butter Flavored Chips (Partially Defatted Peanut Meal, Sugar, Partially Hydrogenated Palm Kernel and Soybean Oil, Nonfat Milk, Dextrose, Salt, Soy Lecithin, and Vanillin An Artificial Flavor, Enriched Flour Blended (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Cocoa Processed With Alkali, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Corn Starch, Carob Powder, Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dextrose, Artificial Flavor, Gellan Gum, Nonfat Milk.

http://www.amazon.com/Betty-Crocker-22- ... tion-facts (whew - included the link, no Wrath of Mai to follow, I hope).

If that's not "processed," then what is?

[Coito ergo sum]

ACK! I can't be arsed to chop up and answer point by point.

But just to address the water issue...how does water become impure? Contamination. The leading contributors to contamination? Manufacturing and processing.

In the world? Not by a long shot.

It wasn't until the last few decades that most of the world could even get pure water, before the industrial revolution in Europe, for example, it was so difficult to find pure water that people rarely drank it.

Nowadays, it's technology and purification methods that give most people their pure and drinkable water right out of the tap (in the rest). In India and Africa, where they lack such technology, they have greater instances of cholera and e.coli and all sorts of water borne diseases.

Except in places like Kerala, where Coca Cola is destroying the local water supply. But hey, they can drink Coke instead.

I'm certain there are plenty of exceptions.

I'm not the one advancing a black-and-white position here. My position is that processed food is not all bad, and that food processing has done some very good things. As a corollary, my position is that "natural" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

I'd not advocate giving up all processing to return to family farming only and local well-drilling (next to sess pools, septic systems and out houses) because of the abuses in some cases. I'd suggest that India take appropriate measures to govern Coke's behavior in India - India can regulate Coke's activities and can put them out of business if it likes. Coke doesn't own India.

[laklak]

Of course all processed food isn't bad. Under the proper circumstances (like a pipeload of chronic) the following can be scrambled with eggs to make what is arguably the most nomish stoner dish on the planet.

[maiforpeace]

ACK! I can't be arsed to chop up and answer point by point.

But just to address the water issue...how does water become impure? Contamination. The leading contributors to contamination? Manufacturing and processing.

In the world? Not by a long shot.

It wasn't until the last few decades that most of the world could even get pure water, before the industrial revolution in Europe, for example, it was so difficult to find pure water that people rarely drank it.

Nowadays, it's technology and purification methods that give most people their pure and drinkable water right out of the tap (in the rest). In India and Africa, where they lack such technology, they have greater instances of cholera and e.coli and all sorts of water borne diseases.

Except in places like Kerala, where Coca Cola is destroying the local water supply. But hey, they can drink Coke instead.

I'm certain there are plenty of exceptions.

I'm not the one advancing a black-and-white position here. My position is that processed food is not all bad, and that food processing has done some very good things. As a corollary, my position is that "natural" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

I'd not advocate giving up all processing to return to family farming only and local well-drilling (next to sess pools, septic systems and out houses) because of the abuses in some cases. I'd suggest that India take appropriate measures to govern Coke's behavior in India - India can regulate Coke's activities and can put them out of business if it likes. Coke doesn't own India.

We got on this discussion because I made a comment "Just what we need, more processed food" to growing or manufacturing fake meat in a petri dish. Nobody ever said that all processed food was bad.

EDIT: On the subject of water, what do you think about what Nestle is planning to do at Wacissa Springs?

[Sisifo]

CES-- I think you might have misunderstood some of what Sisfo was saying about processed foods-- particularly points he raised about ready-to-make brownies and soy. I'm not sure, though-- I'll let him clear up the discussion points, if he cares to.

It's not that I misunderstood him per se - I think it's that we are using different definitions of the term "processed food." Maybe that's the same thing as a misunderstanding. Either way, I gave him the definition I use, which I think is the correct dictionary definition. I am not clear on what his definition is, since I can't see how one can say that Brownie Mix is not a "processed food" and at the same time claim that being served restaurant food is processed food.

I mean - here's a popular brownie mix:

Sugar, Peanut Butter Flavored Chips (Partially Defatted Peanut Meal, Sugar, Partially Hydrogenated Palm Kernel and Soybean Oil, Nonfat Milk, Dextrose, Salt, Soy Lecithin, and Vanillin An Artificial Flavor, Enriched Flour Blended (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Cocoa Processed With Alkali, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Corn Starch, Carob Powder, Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dextrose, Artificial Flavor, Gellan Gum, Nonfat Milk.

http://www.amazon.com/Betty-Crocker-22- ... tion-facts (whew - included the link, no Wrath of Mai to follow, I hope).

If that's not "processed," then what is?

What hadespussycat and pappa say it's true. There may be a misunderstanding about what we consider processed foods. My meaning would be closer to the term "industrially processed foods". Depending on the restaurant, it could be so, or not. But I am addressing all canned, boxed, etc foods, and yes, and specially, the ready to make brownie mix. I actually meant Brownie ready mix as a more processed food than the frozen prawns. Any raw or just packed or frozen ingredient, would be low processed food in this opinion. UHT milk is low processed food, but if it's also skimmed, with vitamins added, low lactose, etc, then it's highly processed food. I think I am explaining myself better.

You are right. Water is the big issue on nutrition safety, consciously and wrongly I left it out as not being sure to put it as food, but it is the number one killer in the world. In my line of work, I get water poisoning as much as an herpetologist gets bitten, so I don't argue that.

The increase of the lfe expectancy it's due to reducing child mortality by access to clean water and child vaccinations and, after that, to a better medical care, but I don't think that we can give to highly processed foods any merit on that.

I agree with you that diabetes and obesity go by the hand, which it's due to increased calories, but with exceptions to confirm the rule, I associate that to the presence of highly processed foods in a society.
Our anecdotal evidences are maybe different because we live and work in different worlds. In mine, highly processed foods such as soda cans, bagged snacks and microwavable foods are a very recent phenomenon and actually I have participated in programs with the WFP to discourage local populations to consume then and to put them back into traditional diets.

Talking about that, I consume soy if I am eating soy in its shape. I follow very strictly a diet of very traditional gastronomy.

[Coito ergo sum]

ACK! I can't be arsed to chop up and answer point by point.

But just to address the water issue...how does water become impure? Contamination. The leading contributors to contamination? Manufacturing and processing.

In the world? Not by a long shot.

It wasn't until the last few decades that most of the world could even get pure water, before the industrial revolution in Europe, for example, it was so difficult to find pure water that people rarely drank it.

Nowadays, it's technology and purification methods that give most people their pure and drinkable water right out of the tap (in the rest). In India and Africa, where they lack such technology, they have greater instances of cholera and e.coli and all sorts of water borne diseases.

Except in places like Kerala, where Coca Cola is destroying the local water supply. But hey, they can drink Coke instead.

I'm certain there are plenty of exceptions.

I'm not the one advancing a black-and-white position here. My position is that processed food is not all bad, and that food processing has done some very good things. As a corollary, my position is that "natural" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

I'd not advocate giving up all processing to return to family farming only and local well-drilling (next to sess pools, septic systems and out houses) because of the abuses in some cases. I'd suggest that India take appropriate measures to govern Coke's behavior in India - India can regulate Coke's activities and can put them out of business if it likes. Coke doesn't own India.

We got on this discussion because I made a comment "Just what we need, more processed food" to growing or manufacturing fake meat in a petri dish. Nobody ever said that all processed food was bad.

Okeydoke.

EDIT: On the subject of water, what do you think about what Nestle is planning to do at Wacissa Springs?

Nothing at the moment, since I don't know what they're planning to do.

I did a quick google search and as I understand it Nestle wants to pump water from a river. I guess they need a consumptive use permit to do so.

I really don't know enough about it to comment.

What do you think about it?

[Warren Dew]

Nobody ever said that all processed food was bad.

Nobody has said it, but I personally try to avoid buying any processed food - and my definition is pretty close to Coito's.

I do think Sisifo's argument about processing removing nutrients is more valid than his argument about food poisoning. Most food poisoning is caused by microorganisms, which unprocessed foods are subject to. The main problem with processed foods isn't so much food poisoning as the fact that processed foods just aren't very good for people.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I like meat but as a poor college student who is always doing something I need a proper diet that is readily available and just as cheap as the easily made meat products. Until this is provided I'll just keep buying whatever meat I can find at the local grocery market.

One word - TOFU. Make sure you buy the "Free Range" variety!

Totally
Obscene
Fucking
Upchuck.

YUMMY!!!!!!!!!!!

[JimC]

It's horses for courses. There are lots of examples where food processing has resulted in useful and delicious foods. However, there are also plenty of examples where it is much healthier and tastier to start with fresh ingredients and process them yourself, rather than let it happen in a factory, often with a rather excessive list of added chemicals as preservatives, "flavour enhancers and the like.

I'd much rather start with some fresh meat and vegies, and combine them in a way that seems interesting, than grab a frozen TV dinner, for example...

[Sisifo]

It's horses for courses. There are lots of examples where food processing has resulted in useful and delicious foods. .

Yes. And this comment from CES which I had missed before.

I'm certain there are plenty of exceptions.

I'm not the one advancing a black-and-white position here. My position is that processed food is not all bad, and that food processing has done some very good things. As a corollary, my position is that "natural" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

I agree absolutely. Processed foods have a reason and a place, and the benefits that some have provided are undeniable. I avoid them for personal reasons and warn that the benefits in time or money can be at the expense of health and culinary experience. But I think we all agree on that with just a minor debate of how many exceptions we can apply to the rule.

[maiforpeace]

I avoid them for personal reasons and warn that the benefits in time or money can be at the expense of health and culinary experience.

The distinction for me is between processed vs overprocessed food...simple processing to keep food safe, versus over-processing to manipulate taste, appearance, nutritional value and convenience.

So one might get an artisan bread made with whole grain flour, a natural levain, some honey and some salt, or you can buy a loaf of Orowheat Healthy Multigrain Bread made with: UNBLEACHED ENRICHED FLOUR [WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMIN MONONITRATE (VITAMIN B1), RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), FOLIC ACID], WATER, WHOLE WHEAT FLOUR, HONEY, WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, YELLOW CORN GRITS, OATS, BUTTERMILK (MILK), WHEAT BRAN, BROWN RICE, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL, BROWN SUGAR, SALT, SESAME SEEDS, PEA FIBER, CALCUM CARBONATE, MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES, CALCIUM SULFATE, GRAIN VINEGAR, POPPY SEEDS, ACESULFAME POTASSIUM, SOY LECITHIN, AZODICARBONAMIDE.

The supposed healthy Multigrain Bread's main ingredient is unbleached enriched flour...how is that healthy? What about all those other things, like three types of sugar, oil, all those unpronouncables...yuk!

This is purely anecdotal, but I am convinced that when I quit Weight Watchers and eliminated all those over-processed diet foods from my weight loss diet last year this is when I began to slowly and steadily lose weight. I know some of this had to do with the reduction in carbohydrate calories, which is what they use to make up for the fat in most of those diet foods.

[laklak]

A lot of food sold as healthy and unprocessed is anything but. A good example is the "nitrate free" cured meats. Thing is, they aren't nitrate free. It's a fucking lie. If you cure meat without nitrates it's brown or gray and is highly susceptible to Clostridium botulinum growth during the curing process. You don't want that stuff in your meat.

What they do is add celery juice, which contains large amounts of sodium nitrate, EXACTLY the same chemical I add to my bacon and sausages. All cured meats, even the extra-expensive "nitrate free" ones, contain exactly the same amounts of sodium nitrate. Oh, and you'd best get one with added ascorbic acid, because that's what prevents the nitrates from turning in nitrosamine when heated. Nitrosamine is the stuff that is carcinogenic, not the nitrates. Anyone who is eating truly nitrate free cured meat is a) making it at home b) eating gray bacon and c) fucking stupid.

Another is the "uncured" bacon you see, again in the extra expensive, healthy section. There is NO SUCH THING as uncured bacon. Bacon, by definition, is a cured meat product. Besides, curing meat isn't unhealthy.

Here's my favorite - some asshat company is selling "gluten free" bacon. WTF? Gluten comes from wheat. Even if you fed your hogs a diet consisting only of wheat the meat doesn't have any goddamned gluten in it. I know of no method of meat curing that uses wheat flour, so it's another scam to take advantage of stupid consumers.

Rant over. I'm irritated because I had a potential client take exception to the fact that I added curing salt to my bacon, he wanted it "nitrate free". Fuck him.