The Coronavirus Thread

[laklak]

Mrs. Lak finally got her second jab, so we're both fully chipped and trackable protected. This is necessary because we've been roped into attending my youngest nephews uni graduation next week, and though it will definitely be socially distanced there will be a lot of pestilential ground apes there. Better safe than sorry.

[JimC]

And, as always, you did not comment on the fact of a lot of vaccine refusal by the Republican right...

I don't know why they might refuse, with Trump singing the praises of vaccines so firmly.

But I do think they should have the right to not take it.

How about you? Individual rights? Or collectivism?

Forced vaccination? Or let them choose harsher symptoms?

Does the government get to force you down any other 'public health' paths? I hear a lot of folks refuse to improve their cardio. Lots of fatties end up in hospital, compared to healthier groups...

There is a whole thread about such issues here:

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 22&t=55280

You may not have read it, but in that thread there is lots of discussion and argument about the pros and cons of various sorts of pressures or incentives for vaccination. In the end, in most countries, I suspect that it will not be anything like forced vaccination. There will probably some jobs such as health care where it is a condition of employment (difficult to argue against that), but for most people, there will be a range of freedoms for the vaccinated, with more burdens in a job if you are not, such as frequent testing or mask wearing. People will still have a choice, but only die-hard anti-vaxxers will persist in their folly.

And the whole obesity thing is a red herring, contributing nothing of substance to rational arguments about dealing effectively with this virus.

[Cunt]

The whole obesity thing could be a red herring, or a significant co-morbidity.

Depending on whether one is looking at facts, or fatty-apologetics.

[JimC]

It may be an issue in its own right, but it is not relevant to discussions about how best to increase the vaccination rate in the population.

[Cunt]

No, but when someone dons a mask to protect their community, then eats all the excess food necessary to maintain their body at a high weight, well, it's like the old saying.

Humans bodies are a breathing image of their self-respect.

As to increasing vaccination rates, when are they 'approved'? I suspect at least some of the hesitant, would be more convinced once formal approval is granted.

[JimC]

All the vaccines available here have been approved.

[Cunt]

It looks to me like the vaccines suck at blocking transmission, but are dandy at reducing severity of consequences.

Makes it comfy to have the 'freedom for individuals' perspective. I don't get why some are upset at the unvacced, considering they are the ones risking their own health...

[NineBerry]

Because

1) they have a lot lot lot lot higher risk of getting infected and spreading the virus
2) Acute strain on the healthcare system (affecting everyone) is a risk until there is a higher vaccination rate.

[JimC]

From all that I've read, vaccines do reduce your chance of catching it, but, particularly with the Delta strain, you certainly can still catch it, particularly if exposed to a high virus load. Once a vaccinated person catches it, they have a somewhat reduced chance of passing it on, but by no means zero. You are correct in thinking that the major benefit is to greatly reduce the severity of the disease, leading to many fewer hospitalisations and deaths.

But we should not just be thinking of the risk from unvaccinated people from an individual point of view. What is needed is a population perspective; the higher the proportion of a given population are fully vaccinated, the slower the spread of the virus will be.

[Cunt]

Because

1) they have a lot lot lot lot higher risk of getting infected and spreading the virus
2) Acute strain on the healthcare system (affecting everyone) is a risk until there is a higher vaccination rate.

That second one is the reason I think comorbidities are worth more media time.

The best lockdowns didn't do all that much, so why not start pointing out other ways to improve things?

I hear conflicting things about vitamin D, but going outside has SO many benefits. I think they don't push it much because most of the target of marketing is people who live in much more crowded places.

[Cunt]

I don't think of 'slower', really...too much subtlety there. I think R+ or R-, basically, if the rnaught gets down a certain amount, the virus dies out (maybe over decades, but you know...)

I know there is a lot more nuance to it, but that's the biggie I hope for.

[Sean Hayden]

There are no pediatric ICU beds available in Dallas county. --insane

“That means if your child’s in a car wreck, if your child has a congenital heart defect or something and needs an ICU bed, or more likely if they have Covid and need an ICU bed, we don’t have one. Your child will wait for another child to die,” Jenkins said. “Your child will just not get on the ventilator, your child will be CareFlighted to Temple or Oklahoma City or wherever we can find them a bed, but they won’t be getting one here unless one clears.”

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/13/us/dalla ... index.html

[Tero]

Cases in US, Florida by far the biggest cause. Deaths are running 400-1000 per day for US.

[Hermit]

Obesity may or may not be infectuous, but that evades the question neatly.

Should people be forced to take reasonable measures to protect the health care resources? Like taking a vaccine, or reducing their weight?

Or only one of those?

Liberty for individual choice, or public health mandates?

Obesity is not infectuous. Covid is. That is why obesity is a private health matter in precisely the way spreading the Coronavirus is not.

Are you trying to get me to believe that coronavirus stops being infectuous by vaccination?

No. Had I made any such claim you would have found it by now.

While vaccinations do not stop all coronavirus infections, they do stop 80% of them. It's a bit like wearing seat belts while travelling in cars, but the difference between vaccinations and seat belts is that the latter only affect you, while the former also affect the people around you. The 80% of vaccinated people who do not get infected because they are vaccinated are obviously no longer part of the demographic that passes the virus on to others they mingle with in supermarkets, at work, at home or wherever. It's a point I made in two previous posts yesterday. You appear to have a problem acknowledging it.

[JimC]

While vaccinations do not stop all coronavirus infections, they do stop 80% of them. It's a bit like wearing seat belts while travelling in cars, but the difference between vaccinations and seat belts is that the latter only affect you, while the former also affect the people around you. The 80% of vaccinated people who do not get infected because they are vaccinated are obviously no longer part of the demographic that passes the virus on to others they mingle with in supermarkets, at work, at home or wherever. It's a point I made in two previous posts yesterday. You appear to have a problem acknowledging it.

I think Cunt's issue is an automatic unwillingness to accept such a thing as a collective benefit of vaccination to society; it must have nasty socialistic connotations for him and others from the right...