US Election 2020

[Hermit]

- Capitalism is the over-arching system of Power.
- "Power" are just those forces and interests which devise, control, and enforce the systems by which society operates.
- Power has ensured and continues to ensure that racism is an endemic feature of those systems.
- Therefore Capitalism ensures or necessitates racism...

Crap. Capitalism does not necessitate racism. Just look at the industrial revolution in 18th century England.

Sure, all those loom workers, and their children, toiling in the dark satanic mills, and the Welsh, English and Scottish miners risking their lives on a daily basis to scrape a meagre living from the bowels of the Earth were, on the whole, ethnically homogeneous. But where did the cotton for those mills come from, or the ore that that coal smelted? Who built the railways which brought those commodities to the factory and foundry and took the products thereof back to the ports for export? How were those resource commodities acquired; the tea for the China cups of genteel ladies and the tobacco that filled their husbands' pipes? How was the violent oppression and exploitation of the peoples and lands of far away black, brown and yellow people justified, and who enforced those forms of oppression, exploitation and theft; and who benefitted from it? Was racism not a feature of the system from the off?

If all the tea in China came from Anglo-Saxons living there, you'd still be drinking it in the UK, and at much the same cost. Again, racism is a feature. It's not a necessity. Exploitation is. Capitalism is a class thing, not a matter of race. Read your Marx. Or Smith for that matter.

[Sean Hayden]

Bigotry is not an economic structure ....it's humans behaving badly.

Arguing that a clear distinction can be made between the two --human behavior and economic structures-- sounds like bad philosophy to me. Or, if you prefer, bad maths.

[Brian Peacock]

That's all true Sean. However, I'm talking about those situations where racism acts as a kind of justifying ideology for Power. It's not the only justifying ideology, let alone the pure foundation of the ideologies of Capital Power, but nonetheless I think racism has been and is used as a tool to operate the system. Part of the problem here I think is that the term 'race' is most keenly associated with things like skin colour, genealogy, and/or geography, but it can also have political associations which are seen in the way that people and groups are defined as distinct or separate from the body populous, and then divested by Power of some element of their autonomy, rights and/or dignity in the process - a process which ultimately benefits Capital interests.

[Brian Peacock]

- Capitalism is the over-arching system of Power.
- "Power" are just those forces and interests which devise, control, and enforce the systems by which society operates.
- Power has ensured and continues to ensure that racism is an endemic feature of those systems.
- Therefore Capitalism ensures or necessitates racism...

Crap. Capitalism does not necessitate racism. Just look at the industrial revolution in 18th century England.

Sure, all those loom workers, and their children, toiling in the dark satanic mills, and the Welsh, English and Scottish miners risking their lives on a daily basis to scrape a meagre living from the bowels of the Earth were, on the whole, ethnically homogeneous. But where did the cotton for those mills come from, or the ore that that coal smelted? Who built the railways which brought those commodities to the factory and foundry and took the products thereof back to the ports for export? How were those resource commodities acquired; the tea for the China cups of genteel ladies and the tobacco that filled their husbands' pipes? How was the violent oppression and exploitation of the peoples and lands of far away black, brown and yellow people justified, and who enforced those forms of oppression, exploitation and theft; and who benefitted from it? Was racism not a feature of the system from the off?

If all the tea in China came from Anglo-Saxons living there, you'd still be drinking it in the UK, and at much the same cost. Again, racism is a feature. It's not a necessity. Exploitation is. Capitalism is a class thing, not a matter of race. Read your Marx. Or Smith for that matter.

I've read widely on this matter over the years, and I understand your point. However, I don't think notions of class apply or operate as they've traditionally been assumed to by Marxists - or at least, they no longer operate the way that Marx identified. Class distinctions have broken down and class identity has all but blown away on the wind entirely. I think limiting a reading of Capitalism to one specifically of class and class dynamics is to limit one's understanding of Capitalism as the current over-arching system of Power.

[Svartalf]

- Capitalism is the over-arching system of Power.
- "Power" are just those forces and interests which devise, control, and enforce the systems by which society operates.
- Power has ensured and continues to ensure that racism is an endemic feature of those systems.
- Therefore Capitalism ensures or necessitates racism...

Crap. Capitalism does not necessitate racism. Just look at the industrial revolution in 18th century England.

Beg pardon? in 18th c. England, the non English whether Irish (the Irish gentry and nobility were English by that time), or from other parts of the Emire, and blacks (those who were not actually enslaved) were mostly confined to the lower classes, low grade employees, very rarezly skilled ones, and never so high as business owner. And those who were not actually affilated to the state church were barred from any kind of social advancement.

Svarty, where did I say racism did not exist during the industrial revolution in 18th century England?

Well, I may have misunderstood, but the way your last post was worded, it seemed to imply the industrial revolution was an example of unracist capitalism.

[Tero]

Courts letting Republicans run voting however they want. But why are federal courts involved at all?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... orida.html

[JimC]

Brian

Bigoted predators did ....capitalism didn't.

Brahmins did/do too...
Japanese vs Korean do
etc etc

Bigotry is not an economic structure ....it's humans behaving badly.

macdoc, capitalism certainly exists on a spectrum of ethical actions. At some scales, at some times and in some areas it can be relatively benign. But, left unfettered, over time it will inevitably take the path of less responsibility and more greed, if allowed to. The last is critical - government action can do a reasonable job of ameliorating its excesses. However, in some parts of the world, those with money and power are attacking the ability of governments to chain the beast...

[macdoc]

and that can be applied to any form of human action from churches to unions to political parties to nation states to being neighborly or not.
It has nothing to do with the particular "system" - predation is not inherent ....it's a choice.
That documentary around Capitalism in the 21st Century is excellent and lays out the consequences of letting predators go unchecked and to a large degree untaxed

Capital is just a tool for humans to use ....just like an axe ...can be constructive or destructive as the wielder chooses.

Bill Gates chose to be a destructive predatory capitalist for decades then put the gains to constructive use.

Norway is an excellent example of a constructive mix of controlled capitalism and effective taxes to create a society where the common weal is recognised as a primary goal covering all citizens. They parleyed their state owned oil wealth into 2 % ownership of the world's stocks the income from which funds their social programs.

Alberta on the other hand ...Texas north - fucked it all up.

[NineBerry]

They are going to distribute steroids at the voting booths. You are only allowed to vote after being drugged.

Brave New World.

[pErvinalia]

Trump is going to fail the drug test at the next presidential debate.

[Tero]

Boy this is boring. I don't think I need to know what Pence thinks. He is a nobody.

And I watched the whole Trump Biden thing.

I lasted 30 min. If they said something the news will cover it.

[macdoc]

some good news....

Biden crosses 270 threshold in CNN's Electoral College outlook for first time
By David Chalian and Terence Burlij, CNN
Updated 9:20 PM ET, Wed October 7, 2020

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/07/politics ... index.html

[Hermit]

Part of the problem here I think is that the term 'race' is most keenly associated with things like skin colour, genealogy, and/or geography...

That is not a problem, Brian. That's the definition of race. You can have racism without capitalism and you can have capitalism without racism. Each can exist without the other. Though they frequently interact with each other in major ways, racism is not a necessary component of capitalism. You have yet to convince anyone except yourself that it is.

By the way, do you think it may be a good idea to disentangle our discussion about capitalism and racism from this thread, which is supposed to be about the impending US election?

[Brian Peacock]

@Hermit http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 4#p1879354

[rainbow]

Luckily Pence was able to mansplain to Harris:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics ... 20-vpx.cnn