Change the name of Israel

[Hermit]

Israel was created out of primarily Jewish populated areas.

LOL. And that allegation immediately below this map:



Try and reconcile your claim with it, please.

In 1939 30% of the British Palestinian Mandate was Jewish, and they occupied 12% of the land at that time. The map seems broadly in agreement.

[Hermit]

He is trying (unsuccessfully, IMO) to equate the legal and international status of the mandated territory of Palestine with the unilateral land seizure which was the beginning of Israel.

It's also awfully close to invoking the "terra nullius" concept, in that as there is no nation covering the land in question,there is no law in existence regulating land ownership. Ergo, that land is up for grabs. The doctrine stems from John Locke's writing* and became legal precedent in a case brought before the Privy Council in 1889, Cooper v Stuart. One of the judges, Lord Watson, put it thus:

There is a great difference between the case of a colony acquired by conquest or cession in which there is an established system of law, and that of a colony which consisted of a tract of territory practically unoccupied, without settled inhabitants or settled law, at the time when it was peacefully annexed to the British Dominion. The Colony of New South Wales belongs to the latter class.

and

there was no land law or tenure existing in the Colony at the time of its annexation to the Crown; and, in that condition of matters, the conclusion appears to their Lordships to be inevitable that, as soon as colonial land became the subject of settlement and commerce, all transactions in relation to it were governed by English law, in so far as that law could be justly and conveniently applied to them.

Well, there was no nation by the name of Palestine or any other... That appears to be a very important point to Coito Two. He keeps pointing it out on numerous occasions, and in case words are not convincing enough he provides a map of the Ottoman Empire showing that there were no nations in the area at all for centuries. To make sure we get it, he presents that map twice. Needless to say, I don't share his opinion regarding the importance of pre-existing nations. I also think the UN was in grave error when it bestowed its seal of approval on the establishment of Israel. It's a case of sanctioned theft to me.

*"Whatsoever, then, he removes out of the state that nature hath provided and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property." John Locke, The Second Treatise of Civil Government, 1690, Ch. V Of Property, §27

[Forty Two]

Israel was created out of primarily Jewish populated areas.

LOL. And that allegation immediately below this map:



Try and reconcile your claim with it, please.

Easy - you are including the West Bank and Gaza in that map of Israel. The orange bits correspond with Israel.

In 1939 30% of the British Palestinian Mandate was Jewish, and they occupied 12% of the land at that time. The map seems broadly in agreement.

Sure, and you include the West Bank and Gaza in that map as if it's part of Israel. They aren't. Carve out the west bank and Gaza and draw a map of Israel such that you aren't including land that isn't present day Israel in its calculations.

Note, the british mandate originally included Iraq and Jordan -- those two countries were carved off and allowed to be Muslim countries.

In 1947, following Britain's announcement of its intention to terminate its Mandate government, the UN General Assembly appointed a special committee - the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine - to make recommendations on the land's future government. UNSCOP recommended the establishment of two separate states, Jewish and Arab, to be joined by economic union, with the Jerusalem-Bethlehem region as an enclave under international administration. On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan, adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state.

The Jewish state was drawn around areas of Jewish populations. The rest was (as with most of the British Mandate and all of the French Mandate) allowed to be Muslim States, and the Muslim bits of remaining Mandate land was voted by UN resolution to be another Arab=Muslim country. The Arab-Muslims rejected it for the sole reason that they want it all - they want it all - as Freddie Mercury says - they want it all, and they want it now!



The blue areas are what became Israel in 1947. The bits added since then came as a result of multiple Arab-Muslim countries engaging in military activities with the purpose of slaughtering and eliminating the State of Israel. If you lose territory in a war, then you lose it. You'll have to negotiate it back. That's the way it is. You don't get to invade another country, then have them push you back and then demand borders be reestablished with no change in Status Quo.

[Forty Two]

Once again, as you can see - the idea of Israel as not being in the bed, and being a dog that sneaks onto the bed, only to eventually push the owner off onto the floor, is just a ridiculous metaphor. Absurd. It did not happen that way.

And, all your numbers make no sense because you keep saying things like "oh, in 1930's mandatory palestine the Jews were only X% and now they're a majority!" and then you ignore that the land area of Israel is miniscule compared to that of Mandatory Palestine originally, and tiny compared to what it was in the 1920s and 1930s and about 1/2 that which was left at time of partition.

And, last time I checked, most people's position would be that it would be rather unpalatable as an immigration policy to say the Jews are disfavored as immigrants, which is one of the key points made by the anti-Israel side. They think it's somehow immoral or reprehensible for jews to immigrate. Suddenly, being anti-immigration is, and discriminatory based on religion, is now the kind, compassionate and progressive point of view....

[Forty Two]

He is trying (unsuccessfully, IMO) to equate the legal and international status of the mandated territory of Palestine with the unilateral land seizure which was the beginning of Israel.

This is where we have some fundamental difference in understanding of the facts, which could be causing us to draw different conclusions.

Please, if you could, would you link to something authoritative that shows how Israel was created by "unilateral land seizure?"

The Partition, as I understand it, was under UN auspices, and the country was simply drawn around Jewish populated areas of what was left of the British Mandate in the late 1940s. That's not a "land seizure" - that's the drawing of a political boundary. Was there some fundamental or immovable "right" that the country drawn had to be a Muslim country?

What's your view of the creation of Jordan? That too was "partitioned" from the British Mandate, right? So, was that "unilateral land seizure?" Why not?

So - I guess, in short, I'm asking "what unilateral land seizures" are you talking about, when, and where? Surely, there is a historical source on which you base your view of the facts.

[Forty Two]

So you've gone from saying Palestine didn't exist before 1948, to posting a map showing Palestine existing in 1920.

That's not what the map shows. Palestine was a region. In 1914 it was a region of the Ottoman/Arab Empire, and had been for nearly 500 years, except for periods where parts were reconquered by Christian forces in the middle ages. Before that ,it changed hands between the Byzantine Empire (Christian) whose capital was Constantinople (conquered and usurped by Muslims, who renamed it Istanbul), and the growing Muslim empires from the 7th century to the final fall of Constantinople in 1435. It was part of the Roman Empire from the 1st century BCE onward. It was never a country of its own.

In the 1920s, it was part of what was called "British Mandate for Palestine" which started in approximately 1917 or 1918, when the WW1 ended and the Ottoman Empire was dead, slain by the British and French, because the Ottoman Empire sided with Austria-Hungary and Germany in the Great War. Initially, the British Mandate for Palestine included all of the area which is now Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, and Iraq and thereabouts. It was a huge area. First, they lopped off a section - drawn more or less arbitrarily - which became Iraq -- then they lopped off another country called Transjordan, meaning "across the Jordan River" and what was left was still called British Mandate for Palestine and included Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, those bits.

No map I posted suggested "Palestine existing in 1920" other than as "British Mandate for Palestine" - which was the British occupational government from 1918 and for 30 years from then when they had had enough. That's when they said "we're done," and the UN said - o.k. - these last bits of land there need to be divided because the Jews and the Moslems don't want to live together. Here - here we'll take these bits here which have the main Jewish populations, and they can be Israel. They said the remaining land can be Muslim, just like the rest of Mandatory Palestine was (Iraq and Jordan etc., and all of French Mandatory Palestine, which included Turkey, Syria, Lebanon etc).

The Jewish forces were smart - they took what they could get. The Arab Muslim forces, though, they said no way Jose', we ain't countenancing no Jewish state in these here parts... they took our jobs! And, so they started a big war -- and one thing that happened in 1948 was that the West Bank was seized and occupied by TransJordan, which then annexed it in 1950, and to make it clear, they were no longer "across the Jordan" they were just "jordan" - covering what they were partitioned, plus the West Bank. Egyptian forces took over the Gaza region.

That's what happened.

[Rum]

Well you can colour in Golan as part of the country as of today.

As an aside my father served in the Royal Palestine Police during the British mandate and handover and my parents met there. My dad was fond of telling me how, after growing up Welsh Baptist with all its rousing songs about the River Jordon- as well as other biblical landmarks - he was crestfallen to see it was little more than a trickle like creek in reality.

[Brian Peacock]

The flags in the cartoon merely represent the peoples of the region, banners under which the displaced and their displacers are distinguished. Nationhood is secondary. There, controversy over, unless we want to argue about the Highland clearances or the subjugation of Native Americans and the violent seizure of their lands?

[pErvinalia]

So you've gone from saying Palestine didn't exist before 1948, to posting a map showing Palestine existing in 1920.

That's not what the map shows. Palestine was a region. In 1914 it was a region of the Ottoman/Arab Empire, and had been for nearly 500 years, except for periods where parts were reconquered by Christian forces in the middle ages. Before that ,it changed hands between the Byzantine Empire (Christian) whose capital was Constantinople (conquered and usurped by Muslims, who renamed it Istanbul), and the growing Muslim empires from the 7th century to the final fall of Constantinople in 1435. It was part of the Roman Empire from the 1st century BCE onward. It was never a country of its own.

In the 1920s, it was part of what was called "British Mandate for Palestine" which started in approximately 1917 or 1918, when the WW1 ended and the Ottoman Empire was dead, slain by the British and French, because the Ottoman Empire sided with Austria-Hungary and Germany in the Great War. Initially, the British Mandate for Palestine included all of the area which is now Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, and Iraq and thereabouts. It was a huge area. First, they lopped off a section - drawn more or less arbitrarily - which became Iraq -- then they lopped off another country called Transjordan, meaning "across the Jordan River" and what was left was still called British Mandate for Palestine and included Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, those bits.

No map I posted suggested "Palestine existing in 1920" other than as "British Mandate for Palestine" - which was the British occupational government from 1918 and for 30 years from then when they had had enough. That's when they said "we're done," and the UN said - o.k. - these last bits of land there need to be divided because the Jews and the Moslems don't want to live together. Here - here we'll take these bits here which have the main Jewish populations, and they can be Israel. They said the remaining land can be Muslim, just like the rest of Mandatory Palestine was (Iraq and Jordan etc., and all of French Mandatory Palestine, which included Turkey, Syria, Lebanon etc).

The Jewish forces were smart - they took what they could get. The Arab Muslim forces, though, they said no way Jose', we ain't countenancing no Jewish state in these here parts... they took our jobs! And, so they started a big war -- and one thing that happened in 1948 was that the West Bank was seized and occupied by TransJordan, which then annexed it in 1950, and to make it clear, they were no longer "across the Jordan" they were just "jordan" - covering what they were partitioned, plus the West Bank. Egyptian forces took over the Gaza region.

That's what happened.

Lot of words to deny that Palestine was a thing before 1948.

[JimC]

We can't turn back the clock. Israel as a state exists, and is powerful enough to stay that way. What is needed is for the Israeli government to stop taking the remaining lands of Palestinian arabs within Israel for the settlement program, and commence serious negotiation for the establishment of a viable 2 state solution. Rocket attacks on Israel by radical elements in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere must also clearly stop, and Arab states need to concede the obvious reality of the existence of Israel.

Personally, I think there is very little chance of this occurring, and a murderous stalemate will continue...

[Svartalf]

I"m sure Iran still regard glassing Israel a viable solution , and packing all Jewish survivors to Birobiszhan quite the humanitarian thing to do.

[Hermit]

And, all your numbers make no sense because you keep saying things like "oh, in 1930's mandatory palestine the Jews were only X% and now they're a majority!" and then you ignore that the land area of Israel is miniscule compared to that of Mandatory Palestine originally, and tiny compared to what it was in the 1920s and 1930s and about 1/2 that which was left at time of partition.

The numbers do not fall apart because they exclude the Transjordan part of the Mandate. The two regions are clearly delineated and treated separately in administrative and political terms from September 1922 onwards.

On 16 September 1922, Article 25 was implemented via the Trans-Jordan memorandum, which established a separate "Administration of Trans-Jordan" for the application of the Mandate, under the general supervision of Great Britain. Transjordan became largely autonomous under British tutelage according to an agreement of 20 February 1928

Having disposed of your latest furphy, we can return to talking of the western part separately. So here are the facts: Mandatory Palestine (do have a look at the map of it displayed here) covered an area of 27,000km². In 1939 30% of the populations was Jewish, and it occupied 12% of the land. Today the state of Israel covers the same area (ignoring the Golan Heights, which were part of the French Mandate) minus the Gaza strip, which is 360km² in size. While the West Bank is not officially annexed, its administration is controlled by Israel since 1967. Jewish settlements spring up all over the area that is formally part of the State of Palestine.

And since June last year the newly created basic law doesn't bother including all its citizens in the state of Israel. It is a state for the Jews among its citizens only.

b) The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination.

c) The actualization of the right of national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

So, yes, that little cot beside the bed in that cartoon accurately describes the conditions the Palestinian people who used to live in Palestine now find themselves in.

[Hermit]

So you've gone from saying Palestine didn't exist before 1948, to posting a map showing Palestine existing in 1920.

That's not what the map shows. Palestine was a region. In 1914 it was a region of the Ottoman/Arab Empire, and had been for nearly 500 years, except for periods where parts were reconquered by Christian forces in the middle ages. Before that ,it changed hands between the Byzantine Empire (Christian) whose capital was Constantinople (conquered and usurped by Muslims, who renamed it Istanbul), and the growing Muslim empires from the 7th century to the final fall of Constantinople in 1435. It was part of the Roman Empire from the 1st century BCE onward. It was never a country of its own.

In the 1920s, it was part of what was called "British Mandate for Palestine" which started in approximately 1917 or 1918, when the WW1 ended and the Ottoman Empire was dead, slain by the British and French, because the Ottoman Empire sided with Austria-Hungary and Germany in the Great War. Initially, the British Mandate for Palestine included all of the area which is now Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, and Iraq and thereabouts. It was a huge area. First, they lopped off a section - drawn more or less arbitrarily - which became Iraq -- then they lopped off another country called Transjordan, meaning "across the Jordan River" and what was left was still called British Mandate for Palestine and included Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, those bits.

No map I posted suggested "Palestine existing in 1920" other than as "British Mandate for Palestine" - which was the British occupational government from 1918 and for 30 years from then when they had had enough. That's when they said "we're done," and the UN said - o.k. - these last bits of land there need to be divided because the Jews and the Moslems don't want to live together. Here - here we'll take these bits here which have the main Jewish populations, and they can be Israel. They said the remaining land can be Muslim, just like the rest of Mandatory Palestine was (Iraq and Jordan etc., and all of French Mandatory Palestine, which included Turkey, Syria, Lebanon etc).

The Jewish forces were smart - they took what they could get. The Arab Muslim forces, though, they said no way Jose', we ain't countenancing no Jewish state in these here parts... they took our jobs! And, so they started a big war -- and one thing that happened in 1948 was that the West Bank was seized and occupied by TransJordan, which then annexed it in 1950, and to make it clear, they were no longer "across the Jordan" they were just "jordan" - covering what they were partitioned, plus the West Bank. Egyptian forces took over the Gaza region.

That's what happened.

Lot of words to deny that Palestine was a thing before 1948.

It's the terra nullius line of argument again. I am not at all surprised that he chose to not react to it when I brought it up a few hours ago, and if he ever does, I expect his reaction to consist of heaps of whataboutism and nothing else. What about the Australian Aborigines, New Zealand's Maoris sort of thing. He might even mention the Canadian Inuit and the US Indians.

[Brian Peacock]

Someone call the burns unit!

[Svartalf]

Palestine has never been a terra nullius , might have been for a short time when the Romans expelled all Jews, but I don't give it 50 years of being deserted, especially as the Romans were filling the empties with new colonies. The Palestinians who lived there under the Ottoman empire and the Mandate era certainly were fully entitled to labds tgat may have been in the family for centuries, the Jews that seized those lands acted no better than Nazis occupying the Sudetenlands and other 'German" areas.