Change the name of Israel

[Forty Two]

Israel thread.
Member 1 brings up topic involving the relationship of Jews and Muslims (and Palestinian Authority and Israel)
Member 2 discusses a difference of opinion regarding that same relationship.
Member 3 that's whattaboutism! when discussing Jews/Muslims and Palestinian Authority/Israel, you can only talk about Israel

[rainbow]

Israel thread.
Member 1 brings up topic involving the relationship of Jews and Muslims (and Palestinian Authority and Israel)
Member 2 discusses a difference of opinion regarding that same relationship.
Member 3 that's whattaboutism! when discussing Jews/Muslims and Palestinian Authority/Israel, you can only talk about Israel

Are you not feeling well?

[Forty Two]

Israel thread.
Member 1 brings up topic involving the relationship of Jews and Muslims (and Palestinian Authority and Israel)
Member 2 discusses a difference of opinion regarding that same relationship.
Member 3 that's whattaboutism! when discussing Jews/Muslims and Palestinian Authority/Israel, you can only talk about Israel

Are you not feeling well?

Israel.

[rainbow]

Israel thread.
Member 1 brings up topic involving the relationship of Jews and Muslims (and Palestinian Authority and Israel)
Member 2 discusses a difference of opinion regarding that same relationship.
Member 3 that's whattaboutism! when discussing Jews/Muslims and Palestinian Authority/Israel, you can only talk about Israel

Are you not feeling well?

Israel.

I think there is medication that can help.

Try getting some professional advice.

[Forty Two]

Sorry, can't talk about anything other than Israel....

[pErvinalia]

You started babbling about other Muslim countries. Nothing to do with Israel and Palestine.

[Brian Peacock]

As cartoons go, it doesn't describe 20th century Jewish-Palestinian history well at all.

Yeah, and the dog's like 54 years old. No dog lives that long, therefore false.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah. And one could never put it in context and assume that "Palestine" pre-1948 means the same land that became Israel post-1948. There's no way it could mean that.

[Forty Two]

As cartoons go, it doesn't describe 20th century Jewish-Palestinian history well at all.

Yeah, and the dog's like 54 years old. No dog lives that long, therefore false.

No - the history did not happen the way it is depicted in the cartoon. Israel was formed in the same way the surrounding countries were formed - like Syria, Transjordan/Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. They were carved out of the carcass of the empire. There wasn't a "Palestine" and Israel did just insert itself into that bed and push Palestine out. It did not happen like that. I.e., the cartoon paints a false picture, completely.

[Brian Peacock]

Yeah. 'Palestine' is just one of the terms the region was known by and the people called Palestinians today are just the descendants of those who were expunged from their homes during the formation of Israel. It's a cartoon, not an essay. It's not false, it's pithy.

[JimC]

Of course there was a Palestine - it was a British administered territory, home to Arabs for many generations, plus a certain number of Jews. It was indeed carved out of the old Ottoman Empire after WW1, but via a recognised international mechanism. Israel as a nation was set up via terrorism against both Arabs and British soldiers, and effectively was opposed by the international community, with America the powerful exception.

[Hermit]

As cartoons go, it doesn't describe 20th century Jewish-Palestinian history well at all.

Yeah, and the dog's like 54 years old. No dog lives that long, therefore false.

No - the history did not happen the way it is depicted in the cartoon. Israel was formed in the same way the surrounding countries were formed - like Syria, Transjordan/Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. They were carved out of the carcass of the empire. There wasn't a "Palestine" and Israel did just insert itself into that bed and push Palestine out. It did not happen like that. I.e., the cartoon paints a false picture, completely.

Orly?



There was a Palestine and the Jews did insert themselves into that bed and pushed the Palestinians out.

[Forty Two]

Here is 1920

Note - the French mandate carved out countries like Syria and Lebanon.

Note - the British mandate carved out "Transjordan" (which originally included the West Bank, and Iraq, and Kuwait, and other bits.

"Palestine" was just a region, and in that region were populations of Jews and populations of Muslims, who tended to live separately, because they loathed each other.

Israel was created exactly in the same manner as Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Transjordan/Jordan. The West Bank was originally part of Transjordan, which invaded and occupied it in 1948, and annexed it in 1950. The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control until 1967.

Israel was created out of primarily Jewish populated areas.



The blue bits were the original Israel in 1947. In 1948, Jordan invaded and occupied the West Bank, and "annexed" it in 1950. The gaza strip on the bottom left there was part of the Egyptian controlled area at that time and through 1967.

Now, those blue areas were not devoid of Jews. They were on the bed, and had been for hundreds and hundreds of years. They weren't off the bed, and sneaked on like Jewish dogs, to unjustifiably take over the bed.

Note, too that in 1917, all that land - Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine - those areas - were all part of the Ottoman empire - none of them had existed as countries before. In 1435, the Ottoman Turks (Arab Muslims) finally stuck a fork in the Byzantine Empire, which had ruled the "area" or "region" for 1000 years, except where the Muslims from the 7th century on had already started conquering bits of the Empire.

Iraq first came into existence when the League of Nations and Britland said it did - and it's borders were arbitrarily (or for political purposes) carved out of the dead Ottoman Empire. There is no greater legitimacy of the country of Iraq than the country of Israel. There is no reason why the dead, conquered Ottoman Empire couldn't be divided up differently - there could have been a "Christian" country set up, too. After all, there were plenty of "Muslim" countries set up. Why not one small Jewish country, set up where most of the Jews in the area lived?

Religions don't own the land -- and in our Western enlightenment mindset, we don't really think of States/Nations as being officially one religion or another, but in that part of the world, they do. There is, for some reason I can't quite place my finger on, this idea that it's o.k. for the countries there to be officially Muslim, but if we were to call one officially Jewish, or officially Christian, that's not allowed....

The original map of Israel was created by the Brits and the United Nations looking to make a compromise and divide the predominantly Jewish areas from the Muslim areas - they had already "partitioned" Jordan and Iraq. So, there was this small bit of area known as Palestine that hadn't been set up as anything yet - it was still under post WW-1 League of Nations "Mandate" rule -- under international law, there was a legal obligation of the winning side to occupy and stabilize the conquered area. So, the Brits were doing that. The land in blue above was majority Jewish. Why shouldn't it, just like majority Muslim areas, be carved out for a Jewish state, when the rest of the countries were all Muslim?

When Israel was formed in 1947, the Jewish state was born. The Muslims, however, said "no way" - we aren't allowing any Jewish state there. It can ONLY be Muslim. So, they did not accept another country on the orange bits up there on the map. They said NO. So, what did that "no" mean? It meant that Jordan conquered the West Bank in 1948, and annexed it in 1950. And, it meant that Egypt seized the bits in Gaza.

Then like 5 Muslim countries banded together and invaded the fledgling Israel and tried to "wipe it off the map." Cuz, you know - Muslim states good, Jewish states "Naqba." They lost. There was another attempt in 1967. They lost again.

Eventually, Jordan renounced its claims to the West Bank - in 1988.

[pErvinalia]

So you've gone from saying Palestine didn't exist before 1948, to posting a map showing Palestine existing in 1920.

[JimC]

He is trying (unsuccessfully, IMO) to equate the legal and international status of the mandated territory of Palestine with the unilateral land seizure which was the beginning of Israel.