Even more problematic stuff

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Brian Peacock
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 pm

The majority of people who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't masked. It's a common ruse of the right, when they're not pushing outlandish conspiracy theories, to generalise from the particular and claim protesters either sympathise with the use of violence by a minority or specifically endorse it - and it is by this that the right seek to create a false equivalence between wannabe and bona fide fascists and those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:07 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:36 pm
They don't want the sympathy of a backward conservative like you. In the case of wearing a mask while fighting injustice the point is to fight that injustice as effectively as possible. Being id'd by the cops is not very effective.

Requiring everyone to be identifiable at all times is authoritarian and a tactic of the security state.
And a requirement of modern law enforcement officers.

And everyone else I respect, now that I think of it.

I can't think of a single time masked aggressors have done good for a protest, but you are welcome to eludicate me.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:08 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 pm
The majority of people who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't masked. It's a common ruse of the right, when they're not pushing outlandish conspiracy theories, to generalise from the particular and claim protesters either sympathise with the use of violence by a minority or specifically endorse it - and it is by this that the right seek to create a false equivalence between wannabe and bona fide fascists and those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities.
What has that event got to do with what I was saying?

I just don't like masks, and think they are usually not good news, in law enforcement OR protests.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:09 am

Cunt wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:36 pm
They don't want the sympathy of a backward conservative like you. In the case of wearing a mask while fighting injustice the point is to fight that injustice as effectively as possible. Being id'd by the cops is not very effective.

Requiring everyone to be identifiable at all times is authoritarian and a tactic of the security state.
And a requirement of modern law enforcement officers.

And everyone else I respect, now that I think of it.

I can't think of a single time masked aggressors have done good for a protest, but you are welcome to eludicate me.
Every time they punch a white nationalist, and shit their rallies down.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:24 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:09 am
Cunt wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:36 pm
They don't want the sympathy of a backward conservative like you. In the case of wearing a mask while fighting injustice the point is to fight that injustice as effectively as possible. Being id'd by the cops is not very effective.

Requiring everyone to be identifiable at all times is authoritarian and a tactic of the security state.
And a requirement of modern law enforcement officers.

And everyone else I respect, now that I think of it.

I can't think of a single time masked aggressors have done good for a protest, but you are welcome to eludicate me.
Every time they punch a white nationalist, and shit their rallies down.
I'm sure masking up and punching people you disagree with is considered good behaviour, but I am fairly sure the Proud Boys wouldn't accept you. You don't sound classy enough. When they punch, they accept consequences. Not very effective, I guess.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:58 am


Cunt wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 pm
The majority of people who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't masked. It's a common ruse of the right, when they're not pushing outlandish conspiracy theories, to generalise from the particular and claim protesters either sympathise with the use of violence by a minority or specifically endorse it - and it is by this that the right seek to create a false equivalence between wannabe and bona fide fascists and those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities.
What has that event got to do with what I was saying?

I just don't like masks, and think they are usually not good news, in law enforcement OR protests.
Well, to be honest you've been somewhat fixated on first, Antifa, and then masks, while in the two similar posts of mine to which you've recently responded you've also stoically pretended not to get the point. People, it seems, have a protected right to hold rallies in support of fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies, yet when others are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities (yes, I've said that 3 times now - you can take it as a hint) we're supposed to get exercised about it and acknowledge how terrible that is instead. To put it bluntly, you don't want to talk about, let alone condemn, those who are actually pushing fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies, but you'll jump right in when it comes to the people who don't want to see it in their communities - 4x now - and things like Antifa and masks are just some of handy, ready-made sticks you've become habituated to beating them with. I dread to think what level of vilification you'd have reserved for those who travelled to Spain in the 1930s to join the International Brigade.
.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:58 am
Cunt wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 pm
The majority of people who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't masked. It's a common ruse of the right, when they're not pushing outlandish conspiracy theories, to generalise from the particular and claim protesters either sympathise with the use of violence by a minority or specifically endorse it - and it is by this that the right seek to create a false equivalence between wannabe and bona fide fascists and those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities.
What has that event got to do with what I was saying?

I just don't like masks, and think they are usually not good news, in law enforcement OR protests.
Well, to be honest you've been somewhat fixated on first, Antifa, and then masks, while in the two similar posts of mine to which you've recently responded you've also stoically pretended not to get the point. People, it seems, have a protected right to hold rallies in support of fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies, yet when others are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities (yes, I've said that 3 times now - you can take it as a hint)
Your hint missed. Are you afraid to speak directly?
we're supposed to get exercised about it and acknowledge how terrible that is instead. To put it bluntly, you don't want to talk about, let alone condemn, those who are actually pushing fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies,
It's been made clear to me over and over, that I don't understand politics.

I am not sure I could properly define fascism, for one thing.
but you'll jump right in when it comes to the people who don't want to see it in their communities - 4x now - and things like Antifa and masks are just some of handy, ready-made sticks you've become habituated to beating them with.
Why is my not liking masked people committing assaults or crimes such a problem?
I dread to think what level of vilification you'd have reserved for those who travelled to Spain in the 1930s to join the International Brigade.
Missed again.

Look, I don't get your 'hint'. I don't know what you are on about fascists and white supremecists...why not say what you mean, and pretend I'm just a person being honest, clumsy, occasionally unfocused and generally decent.

I doubt I support fascism, but I don't want people hurt.

I don't want misery spread.

I like free speech so much, that I think if anyone doesn't like it, they should be forbidden to speak on the subject until they read Mills again.

How do we go from here to you hinting around me being fascist and white supremecist. Wouldn't I have to be white for that?
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
-various artists
Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 am

I am amazed at the number of postings by 42 and Cunt. I never open them of course but it must be approaching Seth's performance. I wonder why?
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Cunt wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:58 am
Cunt wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 pm
The majority of people who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't masked. It's a common ruse of the right, when they're not pushing outlandish conspiracy theories, to generalise from the particular and claim protesters either sympathise with the use of violence by a minority or specifically endorse it - and it is by this that the right seek to create a false equivalence between wannabe and bona fide fascists and those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities.
What has that event got to do with what I was saying?

I just don't like masks, and think they are usually not good news, in law enforcement OR protests.
Well, to be honest you've been somewhat fixated on first, Antifa, and then masks, while in the two similar posts of mine to which you've recently responded you've also stoically pretended not to get the point. People, it seems, have a protected right to hold rallies in support of fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies, yet when others are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities (yes, I've said that 3 times now - you can take it as a hint)
Your hint missed. Are you afraid to speak directly?
we're supposed to get exercised about it and acknowledge how terrible that is instead. To put it bluntly, you don't want to talk about, let alone condemn, those who are actually pushing fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies,
It's been made clear to me over and over, that I don't understand politics.

I am not sure I could properly define fascism, for one thing.
but you'll jump right in when it comes to the people who don't want to see it in their communities - 4x now - and things like Antifa and masks are just some of handy, ready-made sticks you've become habituated to beating them with.
Why is my not liking masked people committing assaults or crimes such a problem?
I dread to think what level of vilification you'd have reserved for those who travelled to Spain in the 1930s to join the International Brigade.
Missed again.

Look, I don't get your 'hint'. I don't know what you are on about fascists and white supremecists...why not say what you mean, and pretend I'm just a person being honest, clumsy, occasionally unfocused and generally decent.

I doubt I support fascism, but I don't want people hurt.

I don't want misery spread.

I like free speech so much, that I think if anyone doesn't like it, they should be forbidden to speak on the subject until they read Mills again.

How do we go from here to you hinting around me being fascist and white supremecist. Wouldn't I have to be white for that?
Though you've reference my two similar posts you haven't, as yet, addressed their content. The 'hint' was my attempt to nudge you in that direction.

If you really don't know what fascism is then I can, to some extent, understand your confusion, and things like that which happened at Charlottesville are divested of a significant amount of context. To you it probably looks like a lot of smartly dressed young men getting together for a sing-song in the spirit of brotherly fraternity while a multi-coloured ragbag of protestors stand around hurling abuse for no good reason.

Considering the amount of time we've been discussing this and related issues I would hope that you're quite receptive to something that is considered a definite exposition on the nature of fascism. It's definitely worth putting an hour of you time aside to read Umberto Eco's 1995 essay for The New York Review of Books, Ur-Fascism. I encourage you to give it a go at least. Anyway...

The point of my previous two posts was that the overwhelming majority of people don't want bigots and hate-mongers to prosper in their communities, and of the many of them are prepared to stand up and shout about it most of them are not mask-wearing Antifa thugs - to characterise them otherwise is misleading. On the other hand, those invested in bigotry and hate, along with their sympathisers and their dupes, systematically shift the focus from their own aims and ideals to the behaviour of those who disagree and object, while at the same time complaining that their 'free speech rights' are being automatically oppressed whenever someone objects to their presence.

You can now consider yourself fully informed. :D

If you're interested enough to respond to this post without falling to a non-sequitor then I'm sure we can have an interesting discussion, one that doesn't just focus on the behaviour of objectors but on the aims and ideals of the people they're objecting to. This is, after all, fundamental to the entire matter.
.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:16 pm

JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:13 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:43 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 am

Protesting Nazis isn't silencing them - it's protesting.
I agree. I never said it was.
Do you see any role for the law in placing sanctions of some kind on extreme hate speech (such as calling for jews to be killed)?
Nope. Why? People talk about killing all the time. We have movies about killing. Talk about killing. People talk about killing or jailing "climate deniers." People talk about killing or jailing "the rich." People talk about "punching Nazis," and how cool it would be if all of such-and-such were killed, or some part of the globe "nuked from orbit" or "turned into glass."

The law cannot make the distinction between "extreme" hate speech and "not so extreme" hate speech reliably. Naturally, anyone can come up with an example of speech which is thought of as really bad by most people, just like you've done. However, the law is never a list of specific things and that's the end of the list. What we're talking about is defining a category which inherently cannot be defined.

The Canadian Supreme Court explained the word “hatred,” (as used in Canadian law) as “unusually strong and deep-felt emotions of detestation, calumny and vilification”; and “enmity and extreme ill-will … which goes beyond mere disdain or dislike.” Can it be reliably distinguished between speech that conveys “disdain,” which not punishable, and speech that conveys “detestation” or “vilification,” which is punishable? Would your view or my view prevail? Would the view of some stuff bureaucrat prevail? A judge? Judges determine what the people can say?
Canadian customs seized copies of a book being imported from the United States because it was dangerous, racist and sexist. The book was Black Looks: Race and Representation by bell hooks, African-American feminist scholar who was then a professor at Oberlin College. hooks describes the impact of this decision in “Outlaw Culture: Resisting Representations”:

It seemed ironic that this book, which opens which opens with a chapter urging everyone to learn to “love blackness,” would be accused of encouraging racial hatred. I doubt that anyone at the Canadian border read this book: the target for repression and censorship was the radical bookstore, not me…it was another message sent to remind radical bookstores—particularly those that sell feminist, lesbian, and/or overtly sexual literature—that the state is watching them and ready to censor.
Thus, “hate speech” laws are enforced against the certain groups they try to protect. We must resist solutions that embrace censorship, as hate speech laws fall hardest on those they aim to protect. Instead, we should favor the liberal solution, more speech:

Just as free speech always has been the strongest weapon to advance reform movements, including equal rights causes, censorship always has been the strongest weapon to thwart them. That general pattern applies to “hate speech” laws, even though they are adopted to advance equality (81).
https://www.cato.org/blog/hate-speech-l ... h-equality

Kill all men. https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/huffp ... l-men.html

Hate criminal? Yes? No? Maybe? "Depends on the context?" "no, because she's in an oppressed class and speaking truth to power?" Are you sure?

Emily obviously didn't "really" mean to literally "kill all men," right? That's a figurative use of words - an ironic point, right? Ironic misandry, yes?

Sarah Jeong said - “Are white people genetically predisposed to burn faster in the sun, thus logically being only fit to live underground like grovelling goblins.” In another, she noted: “It’s kind of sick how much joy I get out of being cruel to old white men”. And she commented: “White people have stopped breeding. You’ll all go extinct soon. This was my plan all along.” https://www.economist.com/open-future/2 ... nce-racism
as an Asian-American woman, she was incapable of racism altogether. Another was that it was really the critics who had excavated Ms Jeong’s public statements who were racists.
The fundamental point that people on the left make is that stereotyping white people is not as bad as stereotyping blacks, Asians, Muslims, immigrants and so on
And that creates a lack of equal protection of the laws. And, the logic is faulty - it's not rational. It would suggest it's fine for the reverse systemt to be true in countries dominated by non-white races. So, in China, we should expect that whites can say hate speech to or about ethnic Chinese, because of the dominance of Chinese in China - same in Japan, right (Japan has a lot of racism toward non-Japanese and mixed-race people). Is that going to happen?

The reality is that any hate speech definition is arbitrary and capricious. Some people get to say what they want, and others have to shut up. It's a bad idea for the law to operate that way.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 am
I am amazed at the number of postings by 42 and Cunt. I never open them of course but it must be approaching Seth's performance. I wonder why?
Well, I would think the goal of any forum is to have lots of discussion, not to reduce the amount of discussion.

Why do you care? You don't read the posts anyway. What do you even come here for?
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:58 am
Cunt wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 pm
The majority of people who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't masked. It's a common ruse of the right, when they're not pushing outlandish conspiracy theories, to generalise from the particular and claim protesters either sympathise with the use of violence by a minority or specifically endorse it - and it is by this that the right seek to create a false equivalence between wannabe and bona fide fascists and those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities.
What has that event got to do with what I was saying?

I just don't like masks, and think they are usually not good news, in law enforcement OR protests.
Well, to be honest you've been somewhat fixated on first, Antifa, and then masks, while in the two similar posts of mine to which you've recently responded you've also stoically pretended not to get the point. People, it seems, have a protected right to hold rallies in support of fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies, yet when others are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities (yes, I've said that 3 times now - you can take it as a hint) we're supposed to get exercised about it and acknowledge how terrible that is instead. To put it bluntly, you don't want to talk about, let alone condemn, those who are actually pushing fascist agendas and white supremacist ideologies, but you'll jump right in when it comes to the people who don't want to see it in their communities - 4x now - and things like Antifa and masks are just some of handy, ready-made sticks you've become habituated to beating them with. I dread to think what level of vilification you'd have reserved for those who travelled to Spain in the 1930s to join the International Brigade.
Not to me. Standing up and shouting to counter-protest bigots and hate-mongers is an excellent idea.

The point you seem to miss is that things like "hitting" or "punching" are not that.

I, for one, always condemn fascist ideologies, white supremacist ideologies. What YOU and others don't ever want to do is condemn the bad behavior of anyone allegedly protesting fascist ideologies. Instead, there are apologetics for violence, because it's the righteous hitting the evilsayers.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:33 pm

I condemn their bad behavior, but I tend to feel silly because of the insignificance of this violence in comparison to things like Iraq, or even the justice system. You just can't win man.
shut up

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:38 pm

Lots of things pale in significance to other things. Whether Richard Spencer walks down the street proclaiming white identity is one of things that is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
"If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists." Friedrich Von Hayek.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:39 pm

yep
shut up

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