Even more problematic stuff

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:44 am

JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
You don't have any choice about that, as far as I can tell.

Even Mindromp, which has more of a core of free speech (as opposed to ratz's cheese, bacon and smegma) is probably subject to that kind of thing. It's a threat in more and more areas of the economy. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson and that Rubin guy all left Patreon (their income source) in protest, but I don't know that any company is safe.

This is why I try (honest I do) to not interfere with the management of this place. There are a few approaches to making a good online forum and almost none of them prioritize free speech.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:07 pm
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Well, yeah. We don't have them in the US. That's a good thing. People can have the opinions they like.

You just said "let's round up all the Jews and gas them like the vermin they are," didn't you? Was something wrong with that? Do you get to say it, but someone who really believes it doesn't?

Taking the position that we should bring back Jim Crow laws, etc., or that a race is inferior is just an idea - yes, it's not action. And, again, you just said it.

The liberal justices of the US Supreme Court had this figured out more 50 years ago. Brandenburg v Kentucky -- and the Nazi Party v Skokie Illinois -- speech is speech, man. In Brandenburg, the SCOTUS ruled that free speech includes the "mere" advocacy of violence. The court recognized the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

Imminent means "right now." Like - whipping up a crowd to go beat up a specific person. But, merely advocating that it would be a good idea to have a violent communist revolution, or a violent fascist uprising - or whatever, would not be illegal. It's protected speech.

Frankly, if someone has the opinions that they think it would be a good idea to gas people, I want them to say it. If they can say it, then the rest of us know who he is. Driving such people underground just makes them fester - they band together in secret - they convince each other that the government or the orthodoxy is silencing the truth. Example - if Nazis can march down the street, then everyone can laugh at and ridicule the Nazis. If the Nazis have to fight to march down the street, or if they are barred from marching down the street, that's proof to them that the Jews really are in control, and silencing them. I prefer a world where the Nazis are open, and laughed at, and where they aren't funny, law enforcement knows where to find most of them.
Protesting Nazis isn't silencing them - it's protesting.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am

Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:58 am

I preferred my response about inanity.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:15 am

You need to consider that these 'policies', however you write them, will be used by your ideological opposition, in whatever way they deem suitable.

They have every right to, so those policies need to value fairness over feelings.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:11 pm

Svartalf wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:34 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:29 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:48 pm
If antifa comes to town, are they the good guys fighting the bad guys, or are they the bad guys fighting the good guys?
I guess that depends on one's ideology; on whether one thinks fascists are good guys or bad guys. :tea:
Indeed, or whether one thinks communists are bad guys or good guys ,or anarchists are bad guys or good guys, or antifa is bad or good, etc.
antifa isn't communist or anarchist. It's anti-fascist.
and while they do tend to be lefties, they often lean on the extreme edge of the spectrulm, as in, fanatics... before 1980 they would be classified as maoists.
All those who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't Antifa - they were just anti-fascist. It's a common ruse of the right to label those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities as extremists.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:43 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 am

Protesting Nazis isn't silencing them - it's protesting.
I agree. I never said it was.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
That's not clear at all, not in the real world.

The Lindsey Shepard case is instructive on that point.

Some significant factions of people thought that the Steve Pakin show where Jordan Peterson discussed why he believed bill C-16 was a bad idea that that he should not be compelled by law to use words he doesn't agree with was "hate speech" even though it was in a the midst of a theoretical discussion on the limits of free speech and the scope of bill C-16.

This is a private forum, so the owners and their designees could delete everything here - or delete every third word - or delete everything but "hate speech." So, it's not the same thing as either the law proscribing speech, or the use of force to silence speech. You certainly wouldn't be within your rights to use force to silence people.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:00 pm

If I refer to you as Madam, is that hate speech?
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:07 pm

I guess it depends on if you mean it hatefully. If call you an umbrella, because I hate you, maybe that's hate speech.

Only, I don't draw lines at hate speech or non-hate speech. If it's hate speech to call me madam, it doesn't change your right to say what you want.

I am free to choose not to associate with you, to call you an asshole for calling me madam, etc.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm

So it depends on the context?
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:28 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
That's not clear at all, not in the real world.
I'll just leave you to prattle on without me. Someone will perhaps let me know when you're done.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:30 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:28 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm

So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
That's not clear at all, not in the real world.
I'll just leave you to prattle on about your interpretation of the real world without me for a while.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:11 pm
All those who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't Antifa - they were just anti-fascist. It's a common ruse of the right to label those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities as extremists.
I consider it a pretty damning sign for anyone to wear a mask while using force.

Whether it is an army or police force hiding the identity of their officers, or some noodle-armed antifa teens masking up to threaten people - wearing that mask is bad fucking news, and speaks pretty poorly and pretty clearly for anyone wearing them.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by laklak » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:28 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:00 pm
If I refer to you as Madam, is that hate speech?
I prefer "slut" or "bitch".
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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