Even more problematic stuff

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:28 pm

Ooo, she's no better than she ought to be.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm
So it depends on the context?
Whether a statement is "hate speech?" That depends on (a) one's particular definition of hate speech, (b) whether the determination is purely objective, subjective or a combination, and (c) whether it matters for speech to be called hate speech and why, etc.

Naturally, one view of it could be that if I say "I refuse to use made up pronouns to refer to people!" that could be hate speech or it could not be hate speech. Sure, it might depend on the context, but it also depends on each individual person's view on what context makes it hate speech and what doesn't. Some people said Jordan Peterson was engaged in hate speech on the Steve Paikin show that got Lindsey Shepard in hot water. Others think the context of that show as a discussion of the issues means it's not hate speech.

Is it hate speech for a white comic to make racist jokes at a comedy show? Some people would call it hate speech, even if meant in jest, depending on the joke in question. Others would say that anything meant in jest can't be hate speech.

Hate speech is such a loose concept that it does not admit to any real definition. Some people even say that a white person is committing hate speech when he says "I hate black people," but a black person is not committing hate speech if he says "I hate white people" because one is the oppressor punching down, and the other is the oppressed punching up or speaking truth to power.

At bottom - I reject the use of "hate speech" as any sort of line between legally permissible and legally impermissible speech. Hate speech is no less free than non-hate speech.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:02 pm

Defining what should not be allowed to be said is pretty easy. What is between these quotes is not lawful " "

See? I put a word in there, but since it was not allowed, it can't be typed.

In this fashion, censorship fails. Any suitable definition will contain the hated speech. It's why the definitions are so mushy and worthless.

I mean, they will have 'worth', but not in a utility sense...more in the sense of whoever wants to use it as a bludgeon is able to do so.
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:58 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm
So it depends on the context?
Whether a statement is "hate speech?"
Whether referring to you as Madam was hate speech.
That depends on (a) one's particular definition of hate speech, (b) whether the determination is purely objective, subjective or a combination, and (c) whether it matters for speech to be called hate speech and why, etc.

Naturally, one view of it could be that if I say "I refuse to use made up pronouns to refer to people!"...
I don't think 'Madam' falls into that category.
... that could be hate speech or it could not be hate speech. Sure, it might depend on the context, but it also depends on each individual person's view on what context makes it hate speech and what doesn't. Some people said Jordan Peterson was engaged in hate speech on the Steve Paikin show that got Lindsey Shepard in hot water. Others think the context of that show as a discussion of the issues means it's not hate speech.
I'm not discussing the issues. I'm, hypothetically, referring to you as Madam.
Is it hate speech for a white comic to make racist jokes at a comedy show? Some people would call it hate speech, even if meant in jest, depending on the joke in question. Others would say that anything meant in jest can't be hate speech.

Hate speech is such a loose concept that it does not admit to any real definition. Some people even say that a white person is committing hate speech when he says "I hate black people," but a black person is not committing hate speech if he says "I hate white people" because one is the oppressor punching down, and the other is the oppressed punching up or speaking truth to power.
"Hate speech" has been defined in a number of jurisdictions. For example, in the UK the crime of hate speech occurs in speech which is motivated by, or demonstrates, hostility towards other's based on disability, race, religion, sexual orientation or trans/gender identity. Furthermore, for a person to be charged with hate speech the object of their vilification does not have to complain personally, or even be offended*. I give this example only to show that hate speech is far from being 'such a loose concept' as to be meaningless while showing that it does admit to a so-called 'real definition'.
At bottom - I reject the use of "hate speech" as any sort of line between legally permissible and legally impermissible speech. Hate speech is no less free than non-hate speech.
In the UK 'hate speech' is a term applied to a particular kind of offence under a broader sheet of 'hate crime', which is any offence in which the perpetrator is motivated by, or demonstrates, hostility towards individuals and/or groups based upon disability, race, religion, sexual orientation or trans/gender identity, or upon perceived disability, race, religion, sexual orientation or trans/gender identity.

It seems to me that 'hate speech' can and does represent a legitimate distinction between permissible and criminal action, and thus: in order to reject that distinction one also has to reject the basic idea that action is sometimes motivated by, or demonstrates, hostility towards others based on the aforementioned attributes - at least to the extent that this behaviour can ever be considered in any way criminal. In other words, while I'm sure you'll accept that some action is motivated by hostility and hatred towards others, and that some of that action could legitimately be consider criminal, you're not prepared to extend that notion to the point where it can be applied to the use of words. My question is therefore: what is particular to this kind of action, the use of words in speech, which forecloses on the possibility of it ever representing criminality (note here that I'm not talking about incitement, but speech motivated by, or demonstrating, hostility or hatred to others based on the aforementioned attributes, whether perceived or actual)?

* (UK Crown Prosecution Service: Hate Crime)
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by JimC » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:13 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:43 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 am

Protesting Nazis isn't silencing them - it's protesting.
I agree. I never said it was.
Do you see any role for the law in placing sanctions of some kind on extreme hate speech (such as calling for jews to be killed)?
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:39 pm

Hate speech laws today. Contempt speech laws next.

The governments of the UN just started moving to classify criticism of migration policies (government policies) as hatespeech.

This is only possible because hatespeech is a thing. In the US, they would need another way to make 'sense' (if that is what they call it)
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:49 pm

Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:11 pm
All those who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't Antifa - they were just anti-fascist. It's a common ruse of the right to label those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities as extremists.
I consider it a pretty damning sign for anyone to wear a mask while using force.

Whether it is an army or police force hiding the identity of their officers, or some noodle-armed antifa teens masking up to threaten people - wearing that mask is bad fucking news, and speaks pretty poorly and pretty clearly for anyone wearing them.
You really get hung up on the weirdest things. There's white nationalists, people fighting them, murders, attempted murders, but what hangs you up is a fucking mask.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:52 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:49 pm
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:11 pm
All those who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't Antifa - they were just anti-fascist. It's a common ruse of the right to label those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities as extremists.
I consider it a pretty damning sign for anyone to wear a mask while using force.

Whether it is an army or police force hiding the identity of their officers, or some noodle-armed antifa teens masking up to threaten people - wearing that mask is bad fucking news, and speaks pretty poorly and pretty clearly for anyone wearing them.
You really get hung up on the weirdest things. There's white nationalists, people fighting them, murders, attempted murders, but what hangs you up is a fucking mask.
If police, soldiers or 'protesters' are wearing masks while assaulting people, yeah, I think it's a fucking bad thing.

It's not just me, by the way. Some places have laws where you get harsher sentences if you are masked during certain activities. Do you prefer a cop with his name and badge number visible? Or blacked out?
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:56 pm

Cops should be identifiable (wearing a mask doesn't mean they aren't identifiable). Ordinary citizens can wear what they want. It makes sense when you are fighting the dominant power structure to wear a mask. And that's why some jurisdictions have laws against wearing masks. Can't have the plebs stepping outside of their little boxes.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:09 pm

Cops should be identifiable for the same reason protesters should.

Both groups are trying to exert influence on others. Both look like dishonest cowards when they hide their identity. If I saw masked people at a protest, I would trust them a lot less than those who were not wearing masks.

But that's just me. You might think it's a great idea to wear a mask while you assault strangers, or damage property.
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:14 pm

"dishonest cowards"... lol, i'm sure they are chastised by your moral opprobrium.

The point of protesting injustice isn't to appear "honest" to satisfy conservative moralisers like Cunt.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:18 pm

No, the point is either to make real political change (which must include being part of the community, with a name, face and everything)

The point of masked assaulters is to disrupt honest protest, by committing violent acts, such as assault, vandalism or rioting.

If two groups are clashing, one containing your beloved family and neighbours, and the other masked people, would you take a side?
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:19 pm

Rubbish. Wearing a mask is not synonymous with violent action. You clearly haven't been to any protests before.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:24 pm

Not wearing a mask to a protest. Wearing a mask to commit crimes or violence.

Remember when the hate-group 'The Proud Boys' clashed with Antifa in New York recently?

I glanced at the video, and it looked to me like the Proud Boys, while not hiding their identity, were in a fight with some masked assaulters.

When people are making crimes while wearing a mask, they lose a lot of my sympathy. You didn't answer my question though, but I get that. It was a hard one.
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:36 pm

They don't want the sympathy of a backward conservative like you. In the case of wearing a mask while fighting injustice the point is to fight that injustice as effectively as possible. Being id'd by the cops is not very effective.

Requiring everyone to be identifiable at all times is authoritarian and a tactic of the security state.
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