Blasphemy

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JimC
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by JimC » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:26 am

Sean Hayden wrote:chain of command
Vs overwhelming ethical obligation to humanity as a whole...
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:38 am

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:55 am

JimC wrote:
Sean Hayden wrote:chain of command
Vs overwhelming ethical obligation to humanity as a whole...
Jesus, they couldn't have been paying the poor guy enough.
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by JimC » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:34 am

Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam... :roll:
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:10 am

Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.
All of a sudden you trust government systems now? :think:
And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
"suffer[ing] the consequences" is just moralistic bollocks. He has no duty to suffer consequences for civil disobedience. You really aren't a libertarian in the slightest. You just make this shit up as you go.
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:13 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam... :roll:
Yeah. And what's worse is that Seth thinks libertarianism only applies to Americans. Libertarianism is an ideology concerning individuals, not countries. If his actions saved, say, Iraqi or Russian lives, then why is it that Seth the alleged libertarian thinks Merkan lives are more valuable than Iraqi/Russian (or any other countries peoples) lives?
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:34 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.
All of a sudden you trust government systems now? :think:
Nope. But he never even tried the legally mandated method and therefore cannot argue that the system doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
"suffer[ing] the consequences" is just moralistic bollocks. He has no duty to suffer consequences for civil disobedience.
The whole point of civil disobedience is not merely to flout the law, but to seek change in the law by highlighting the injustice of prosecuting people for disobeying the law. Civil disobedience without the willingness to suffer the consequences as a martyr to the cause of justice is merely law breaking, which should be punished.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:38 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam... :roll:
Didn't say anything of the sort. All I said is that Snowden chose the wrong way of going about stimulating change and public debate, and in doing so he violated all sorts of laws and got people killed. His motivations may have been good, but his execution of the plan wasn't, and honest intent doesn't always excuse illegal and dangerous behavior. He's severely compromised the national security of the United States unnecessarily and illegally and did so deliberately and with a callous disregard for the people that he put in danger who had to die for his sense of scruples about his job.

He's a traitor and deserves to be executed for it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Blasphemy

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:10 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.
All of a sudden you trust government systems now? :think:
Nope. But he never even tried the legally mandated method and therefore cannot argue that the system doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
So on one hand you think the government is "jackbooted thugs" who are going to come and machine gun you to death if you don't pay taxes, and on the other hand you think they will be fair and impartial in dealing with someone who has thrown their secrets out into the open. You are a walking contradiction. And, no libertarian.
And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
"suffer[ing] the consequences" is just moralistic bollocks. He has no duty to suffer consequences for civil disobedience.
The whole point of civil disobedience is not merely to flout the law, but to seek change in the law by highlighting the injustice of prosecuting people for disobeying the law.
Bullshit. What orifice did you pull that one from? Civil disobedience is plainly and simply about getting laws changed by flouting the laws.
Civil disobedience without the willingness to suffer the consequences as a martyr to the cause of justice is merely law breaking, which should be punished.
That doesn't even make sense. Civil disobeyers should be punished, and if they aren't they should be punished. :think: Great thesis there.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:13 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.
Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam... :roll:
Didn't say anything of the sort. All I said is that Snowden chose the wrong way of going about stimulating change and public debate, and in doing so he violated all sorts of laws and got people killed.
Got Merkins killed (allegedly). He might have saved countless other lives by exposing what he did.
He's severely compromised the national security of the United States
Yes, us libertarians need to protect nation states, don't we Seth. :wtf:
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Ian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:11 pm

Sn.... Snow......


:twitch:

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Re: Blasphemy

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:27 pm

:lol:
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Svartalf » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:27 pm

What do you mean Ian? Is there snow in Foggy Bottom?
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Re: Blasphemy

Post by JimC » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:23 pm

I rather think we have total agreement between Seth and Ian for the first and probably the last time... ;)

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Re: Blasphemy

Post by Svartalf » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:11 pm

Well, of course Ian would be for Uncle Sam spying on everybody, that's his bread we're talking of here
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