Blasphemy

[JimC]

chain of command

Vs overwhelming ethical obligation to humanity as a whole...

[Seth]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

[Sean Hayden]

chain of command

Vs overwhelming ethical obligation to humanity as a whole...

Jesus, they couldn't have been paying the poor guy enough.

[JimC]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam...

[pErvinalia]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

All of a sudden you trust government systems now?

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

"suffer[ing] the consequences" is just moralistic bollocks. He has no duty to suffer consequences for civil disobedience. You really aren't a libertarian in the slightest. You just make this shit up as you go.

[pErvinalia]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam...

Yeah. And what's worse is that Seth thinks libertarianism only applies to Americans. Libertarianism is an ideology concerning individuals, not countries. If his actions saved, say, Iraqi or Russian lives, then why is it that Seth the alleged libertarian thinks Merkan lives are more valuable than Iraqi/Russian (or any other countries peoples) lives?

[Seth]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

All of a sudden you trust government systems now?

Nope. But he never even tried the legally mandated method and therefore cannot argue that the system doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

"suffer[ing] the consequences" is just moralistic bollocks. He has no duty to suffer consequences for civil disobedience.

The whole point of civil disobedience is not merely to flout the law, but to seek change in the law by highlighting the injustice of prosecuting people for disobeying the law. Civil disobedience without the willingness to suffer the consequences as a martyr to the cause of justice is merely law breaking, which should be punished.

[Seth]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam...

Didn't say anything of the sort. All I said is that Snowden chose the wrong way of going about stimulating change and public debate, and in doing so he violated all sorts of laws and got people killed. His motivations may have been good, but his execution of the plan wasn't, and honest intent doesn't always excuse illegal and dangerous behavior. He's severely compromised the national security of the United States unnecessarily and illegally and did so deliberately and with a callous disregard for the people that he put in danger who had to die for his sense of scruples about his job.

He's a traitor and deserves to be executed for it.

[pErvinalia]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

All of a sudden you trust government systems now?

Nope. But he never even tried the legally mandated method and therefore cannot argue that the system doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

So on one hand you think the government is "jackbooted thugs" who are going to come and machine gun you to death if you don't pay taxes, and on the other hand you think they will be fair and impartial in dealing with someone who has thrown their secrets out into the open. You are a walking contradiction. And, no libertarian.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

"suffer[ing] the consequences" is just moralistic bollocks. He has no duty to suffer consequences for civil disobedience.

The whole point of civil disobedience is not merely to flout the law, but to seek change in the law by highlighting the injustice of prosecuting people for disobeying the law.

Bullshit. What orifice did you pull that one from? Civil disobedience is plainly and simply about getting laws changed by flouting the laws.

Civil disobedience without the willingness to suffer the consequences as a martyr to the cause of justice is merely law breaking, which should be punished.

That doesn't even make sense. Civil disobeyers should be punished, and if they aren't they should be punished. Great thesis there.

[pErvinalia]

Snowden got people killed with his wholesale release of classified information. He's a traitor and an initiator of force and fraud, and therefore needs to be punished. He initiated fraud by violating his oath of secrecy under which he was granted access to the classified materials. Therefore he needs to be punished.

That being said, If Snowden had information that the government was acting illegally, there are specific laws that protect whistleblowers and a specific process by which classified evidence of such wrongdoing can be brought to the attention of the appropriate authority, in this case Congress.

Snowden failed to even try to use this established system, therefore he should be punished.

And finally, the essence of civil disobedience is that one is willing to break the law and then willingly suffer the consequences of doing so as a demonstration to the public of the inequity of the law in hopes of fomenting change.

Snowden was a coward who fled to Russia and turned over important classified information to the Russians rather than face the consequences of violating his oath and the law as a demonstration of his determination to right the wrongs. Therefore he is a traitor and deserves to be shot.

Essentially, Big Brother is fine as long as it's Uncle Sam...

Didn't say anything of the sort. All I said is that Snowden chose the wrong way of going about stimulating change and public debate, and in doing so he violated all sorts of laws and got people killed.

Got Merkins killed (allegedly). He might have saved countless other lives by exposing what he did.

He's severely compromised the national security of the United States

Yes, us libertarians need to protect nation states, don't we Seth.

[Ian]

Sn.... Snow......

[pErvinalia]

[Svartalf]

What do you mean Ian? Is there snow in Foggy Bottom?

[JimC]

I rather think we have total agreement between Seth and Ian for the first and probably the last time...

Amerika Uber Alles!

[Svartalf]

Well, of course Ian would be for Uncle Sam spying on everybody, that's his bread we're talking of here