Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by Cormac » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:50 am

Rum wrote:The OP concerned the way courts handle such cases. Young, vulnerable people who appear in court to give evidence have traditionally been treated as if they were not that - i.e. young and/or vulnerable. In one of the worst cases I have read about one of the Oxford group of girls, having been groomed and sold to multiple rapists for sex was cross examined by eight defence barristers (lawyers) on behalf of their clients. In that case the man who was responsible for grooming the girl got 25 years. The girl, speaking afterwards, said that if faced with the situation again she would not give evidence. She was left feeling like she was the guilty one having been 'dismantled' as it was described.

The rules about how such people are treated in court are being changed to make such things less likely.

As to the surrounding and rather sickening discussion related to the issue, those defending adults who believe that young people can potentially be responsible for the 'seduction' of older men remind me very much of men who suggest that women who don't want to be raped should dress 'modestly and respectably'. The argument has no credibility and there is no exception to the rule in my view that the older guy is legally responsible. To suggest otherwise is to condone exploitation and paedophilia.

:this:
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by Cormac » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:00 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:For those of you who are having some trouble with an age of consent rule, because it is not a perfect determiner of who is emotionally mature sufficient to consent to sex and who isn't, do you have a similar issue with a minimum age to operate heavy machinery, or with a minimum age to buy alcoholic beverages, buy cigarettes, get a tattoo or drive?

i mean, driving a car, i'm sure there are some 14 year olds who have the skills and ability and maturity to operate a car. But, don't you see that it is (a) impractical to test everyone at every age to determine their level of skill and ability, and (b) a decent approximation to pick 16 or 17, or sometimes 15, etc., as a minimum age?

Why is this so troublesome for ages of consent? It's the same concept. in our culture, until a kid reaches the age to drive, they cant' drive, even if they technically would be a good driver. The same goes for sex. In our culture, until a kid reaches the age of consent, they can't legally consent, even if they technically would have no issues with sex and have an adult level mental capacity.

Why? Because in both instances (a) the vast majority of underage kids are not sufficiently ready to drive, or be sexually active, even though some are, and (b) it's impractical to deal with it on a case by case basis due to the imprecision of these kinds of determinations.

:this:

And everything Coito has said on the matter.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by Kristie » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:05 am

Cormac, I think this is what was being talked about in the other thread about why people aren't posting as much as they used to.
Seth wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I agree, Lak. And, when the drinking age was 18, that kind of age-fraud was easier, I think. Now that bars in the US are generally limited to 21 and over, a 13 year old would be much harder pressed to look of age, and they are far more strict on identification than they were 25-30 years ago. When I was in college, there were still folks who had drivers licenses with no photo on it. I remember using one to buy a keg of beer.

I really don't get too outraged over the idea of a guy who is 41 not getting to fuck a 17 or 16 or 15 year old, whatever the age cutoff is. I think there is something wrong with a man that age looking to go after a highschool girl or younger. I mean, what do they have in common? To me, the likelihood of any common interests, thoughts, dreams, wishes, etc. is slim to none. It's really about the sex and sex alone. That's fine, and having raucous orgy swinger sex without attachment is just fine and dandy. However, when it comes to a high school girl and a middle schooler, I think that they ought to grow up first before they engage in it. That's my opinion. I have a daughter, and when she gets older, my first concern is not whether someone who fancies her gets to have sex with her, and I don't feel any sort of outrage or sadness over the fact that some 40 year old doesn't get to play with her that way.

I realize that girls will have sexual thoughts and urges at pubescence and onward, and they will likely want to feel grown up and interact with older people and feel popular and feel good and even might think they honestly want to do all sorts of things with an older person. I just think the older person should refrain, and that there is nothing to lose from the child's standpoint that the adult does refrain. There is a lot to lose for a child if the adult does not refrain -- the girl can be led on, get seriously emotionally hurt, feel used, regret her actions, get pregnant, all sorts of things short of "rape" but which are nevertheless things I wouldn't mind a 12 year old waiting a few years to endure.
I agree with everything you just wrote. What I don't agree with is making it a crime, with penalties more severe than shooting someone in a holdup (25 to life mandatory in some states), if it happens.

And the most common purveyor of trauma to a young girl's emotional health, self-esteem and physical health isn't the 41 year old, not by half...it's her horny and inexperienced male peers who just want to stick it in as a conquest and then dump her.

Like the French, if I had a daughter who was determined to have sex, I'd prefer it be with a stable, mature, sensitive and caring adult who has been properly vetted and interviewed to ensure that the experience is pleasurable, enjoyable and not traumatic.

And this is because I can remember my fumbling, inept and entirely selfish sexual needs when I was a horny teenager. Like most teenage boys, I only feigned interest in a girl if I was sexually attracted to her and wanted to get into her pants, and I knew absolutely nothing whatever about how to make it a mutually pleasurable and fulfilling intimate experience.

My first time was a desperate and ultimately unsuccessful attempt with a perfectly willing girl in a secluded teacher's lockable bathroom in my junior high school. Trust me, it was all about hard cock and wet pussy and nothing else...for both of us. We both went away extremely frustrated.

I bet she'd rather have had a lovely romantic evening with a sophisticated and gentle older man culminating in a candle-lit deflowering on a comfortable bed after substantial foreplay. And if I had a daughter, I'd want exactly that for her. I loathe the culture that makes teenage sex so stigmatic that it becomes a furtive, secret, stressful and usually unsatisfactory event full of shame and guilt. What an awful way to introduce young people to the most beautiful act two humans can engage in.

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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by Cormac » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:15 am

Kristie wrote:Cormac, I think this is what was being talked about in the other thread about why people aren't posting as much as they used to.
Seth wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I agree, Lak. And, when the drinking age was 18, that kind of age-fraud was easier, I think. Now that bars in the US are generally limited to 21 and over, a 13 year old would be much harder pressed to look of age, and they are far more strict on identification than they were 25-30 years ago. When I was in college, there were still folks who had drivers licenses with no photo on it. I remember using one to buy a keg of beer.

I really don't get too outraged over the idea of a guy who is 41 not getting to fuck a 17 or 16 or 15 year old, whatever the age cutoff is. I think there is something wrong with a man that age looking to go after a highschool girl or younger. I mean, what do they have in common? To me, the likelihood of any common interests, thoughts, dreams, wishes, etc. is slim to none. It's really about the sex and sex alone. That's fine, and having raucous orgy swinger sex without attachment is just fine and dandy. However, when it comes to a high school girl and a middle schooler, I think that they ought to grow up first before they engage in it. That's my opinion. I have a daughter, and when she gets older, my first concern is not whether someone who fancies her gets to have sex with her, and I don't feel any sort of outrage or sadness over the fact that some 40 year old doesn't get to play with her that way.

I realize that girls will have sexual thoughts and urges at pubescence and onward, and they will likely want to feel grown up and interact with older people and feel popular and feel good and even might think they honestly want to do all sorts of things with an older person. I just think the older person should refrain, and that there is nothing to lose from the child's standpoint that the adult does refrain. There is a lot to lose for a child if the adult does not refrain -- the girl can be led on, get seriously emotionally hurt, feel used, regret her actions, get pregnant, all sorts of things short of "rape" but which are nevertheless things I wouldn't mind a 12 year old waiting a few years to endure.
I agree with everything you just wrote. What I don't agree with is making it a crime, with penalties more severe than shooting someone in a holdup (25 to life mandatory in some states), if it happens.

And the most common purveyor of trauma to a young girl's emotional health, self-esteem and physical health isn't the 41 year old, not by half...it's her horny and inexperienced male peers who just want to stick it in as a conquest and then dump her.

Like the French, if I had a daughter who was determined to have sex, I'd prefer it be with a stable, mature, sensitive and caring adult who has been properly vetted and interviewed to ensure that the experience is pleasurable, enjoyable and not traumatic.

And this is because I can remember my fumbling, inept and entirely selfish sexual needs when I was a horny teenager. Like most teenage boys, I only feigned interest in a girl if I was sexually attracted to her and wanted to get into her pants, and I knew absolutely nothing whatever about how to make it a mutually pleasurable and fulfilling intimate experience.

My first time was a desperate and ultimately unsuccessful attempt with a perfectly willing girl in a secluded teacher's lockable bathroom in my junior high school. Trust me, it was all about hard cock and wet pussy and nothing else...for both of us. We both went away extremely frustrated.

I bet she'd rather have had a lovely romantic evening with a sophisticated and gentle older man culminating in a candle-lit deflowering on a comfortable bed after substantial foreplay. And if I had a daughter, I'd want exactly that for her. I loathe the culture that makes teenage sex so stigmatic that it becomes a furtive, secret, stressful and usually unsatisfactory event full of shame and guilt. What an awful way to introduce young people to the most beautiful act two humans can engage in.

I can see how one could say that this is promoting such acts, but this is one member, and fishie said "members" implying that there was a generalised support for such notions. In fact, a fair reading of that thread would show the opposite. This forum has no such problem.

Neither do I see any reason at all to change our freedom of speech rules.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:23 am

FBM wrote:How about focusing on the explicit content, rather than presuming implicit assumptions and then basing your response on them? That's how strawmen get made. ;)

As long as society defines pedophiles as pervs, I feel justified in using the term, since society is the ultimate arbiter of definitions.
Problem is that you seem to be oblivious to the actual definition of "pedophile." I'm not sure why because I posted it directly from the DSM.

Nowhere, and at no time have I ever advocated, supported, agreed with or in any way shown approval of pedophilia, nor will I ever do so. That's not even what this discussion is about.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:45 am

Seth is right, pedophiles goes after prepubescent children, something I'm sure this twelve year old girl wasn't. It doesn't make it right, it's just there is a different Greek/Latin word to describe it.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:23 am

'Paedophile' :nazi:
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:25 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Seth,

The following posts contain direct personal attacks on another member.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8#p1482128
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3#p1482123
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1482107

This is a warning that any similar posts will result in an immediate 24h suspension of your account.
Ridiculous. Seth was responding to accusations that he is a paedophile. If he is warned, the person doing the provocation should be warned as well.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:26 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Seth wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Seth,

The following posts contain direct personal attacks on another member.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8#p1482128
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3#p1482123
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1482107

This is a warning that any similar posts will result in an immediate 24h suspension of your account.
I await with bated breath your identical censure of Gawdzilla for his personal attacks.
Please report them and we will look into them.
Why should they need to be reported? You can't miss them.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:27 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Seth wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Seth wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Seth,

The following posts contain direct personal attacks on another member.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8#p1482128
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3#p1482123
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1482107

This is a warning that any similar posts will result in an immediate 24h suspension of your account.
I await with bated breath your identical censure of Gawdzilla for his personal attacks.
Please report them and we will look into them.
Consider them reported. You know exactly which posts I'm talking about. Just look at the quotes I provide in my explicit replies to Zilla. You're smart enough to figure out the rest. I think.

Or are you going to play silly power games?
Not at all. The posts you were warned for in this thread were not in response to personal attacks. The other could be considered such. I will raise it in the staff forum for discussion.

At the end of the day though, it was you that succumbed to goading and started hurling assholes around. You need to watch that temper of yours. You like to boast about how you are playing everyone here and asking the difficult questions - but you bite at any bait that is offered when you are having a bad day. :tea:
He was called a paedophile by implication. Of course that's a personal attack.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:29 am

Collector1337 wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Seth wrote:
Consider them reported. You know exactly which posts I'm talking about. Just look at the quotes I provide in my explicit replies to Zilla. You're smart enough to figure out the rest. I think.

Or are you going to play silly power games?
Not at all. The posts you were warned for in this thread were not in response to personal attacks. The other could be considered such. I will raise it in the staff forum for discussion.

At the end of the day though, it was you that succumbed to goading and started hurling assholes around. You need to watch that temper of yours. You like to boast about how you are playing everyone here and asking the difficult questions - but you bite at any bait that is offered when you are having a bad day. :tea:
This is the thing though. Being snide, and calling someone a pedophile in so many words is actually worse. The only response they should get or deserve is an insult right back. At least Seth has the decency to just give a simple "go fuck yourself" instead of the sneaky snide shit.
:this:

This is why when I fly off the handle, I just come out and call someone what I think they deserve to be called. No lame passive aggressiveness or smarmy cowardice.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by colubridae » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:30 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Seth,

The following posts contain direct personal attacks on another member.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8#p1482128
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3#p1482123
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1482107

This is a warning that any similar posts will result in an immediate 24h suspension of your account.
Ridiculous. Seth was responding to accusations that he is a paedophile. If he is warned, the person doing the provocation should be warned as well.
He was. :yawn:

If you stuck to the rules, you wouldn't get suspended. If you didn't get suspended, you could keep up. Food for thought. :fp:
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:48 am

colubridae wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Seth,

The following posts contain direct personal attacks on another member.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 8#p1482128
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3#p1482123
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1482107

This is a warning that any similar posts will result in an immediate 24h suspension of your account.
Ridiculous. Seth was responding to accusations that he is a paedophile. If he is warned, the person doing the provocation should be warned as well.
He was. :yawn:
I see that. But it shouldn't have taken people pointing out the double-standard for it to be acted on. Both of them should have got warned, or neither of them.
If you stuck to the rules, you wouldn't get suspended.
Wow. I never knew that was how forums worked.
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by colubridae » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:53 am

rEvolutionist wrote: I see that. But it shouldn't have taken people pointing out the double-standard for it to be acted on. Both of them should have got warned, or neither of them.
This is the first, and probably the last time, that we will be in complete agreement. :o
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Re: Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:58 am

colubridae wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote: I see that. But it shouldn't have taken people pointing out the double-standard for it to be acted on. Both of them should have got warned, or neither of them.
This is the first, and probably the last time, that we will be in complete agreement. :o
And you can probably imagine my vast disappointment at that. :roll: Perhaps if you got to know me, you wouldn't continually say patently stupid things in reply to me.
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