"Makers vs. Takers" and why it's dangerous

[Seth]

Of course they are subject to minimum wage and labor laws. Folks may be violating those laws, but the laws still apply.

It is illegal to employ an alien without work authorization anyway, and those who are undocumented and illegally present cannot have work authorization.

What point are you trying to make here? It is illegal to employ an illegal alien. As they are illegal aliens and are illegally employed, the labour laws are not applied to them. If their employer demands 80 hours a week and takes bathroom breaks out of their pay, there's fuck all they can do. These are the sort of working conditions for these 'available jobs' Seth goes on about.

s
Wrong. The laws apply to everyone, including illegal aliens, who can, and in some cases have successfully sued employers for violating the law. In addition, the EEOC and ICE routinely raid places that traditionally employ illegals, like the turkey processing plant in Colorado, and fine and occasionally jail the owners for OSHA and EEOC violations.

When they arrested some 250 illegals at the turkey plant in Longmont a couple of years ago and deported them, there was a line of 1500 or more legal US citizens, many of them legal Somali refugees, applying for those jobs THE NEXT DAY. The processing plant operators were fined millions of dollars for employing and underpaying undocumented workers, and the plant is now inspected regularly by ICE, OSHA and the EEOC to ensure compliance.

Illegal immigrants earn roughly half of what their native family counter parts do.

So what? They shouldn't be earning anything at all in the US, and they are, factually, earning MANY TIMES what they would be earning in their native countries, which is why they come here, why they stay here, and why they are willing and complicit in working "off the books" in those instances where they actually do so.

They aren't being exploited, they know the deal and they both agree to it and agree to use fraudulent documentation and keep their immigration status secret so that they can continue to hold the job, because it's better for them by far than what they can get back home.

They are as complicit in this employment fraud as the employer is, and they deserve to be, at a minimum, deported for violating the rights of legal American employees by shutting them out of entire markets (like framing carpentry and roofing) by glutting the market and working illegally. They should be arrested and fined, then deported.

Aliens need to stay in their own countries and work to better themselves and their own nation rather than fleeing to the United States where they take jobs and depress wages for Americans.

[pErvinalia]

Very aware. There's at least 12 million jobs for Americans to take that are now held by illegal aliens. Problem is the laid-off unemployed aren't going to get off their fat asses and go take those jobs because they are "beneath" their dignity. They would much rather cut back and enjoy regular unemployment checks than go work at the jobs that are available.

Hunger is a great motivator to the indolent and idle, we should make use of it.


... Those who will not work and instead prefer to suck at the public teat can starve in a ditch for all I care. I have no moral obligation to support them in their idleness.

I take it you support Mrs. Romney's statement that the unemployment problem could be solved by removing the minimum wage and other labour laws? Because these 'jobs that are available', but are being taken by illegal immigrants, are not subject to minimum wage or any labour laws. It's pure exploitation. You will not see an illegal alien working at McDonald's for minimum wage and an 8 hour shift with lunchbreaks. You'll see them driving a taxi for 80 hours a week under someone else's license (who sits at home, drinks and smokes crack with his mates) for $2.00 an hour. You'll see them putting up fences and doing grounds maintenance work for 12 hours a day with a 15 minute break for $1.50 an hour. Sure it's better than where they came from, but do you really want to turn your country into where they came from?

He does, while ever he is one of the moneyed class and/or one of the well munitioned. Ideologues like Seth, and the general neo-liberal want inequality to increase, as capitalism requires an exploited underclass, and the more inequal society is, the more exploited that underclass can be. And the richer those at the top get. It's sociopathic, and is the equivalent to the authoritarian shit that went on in USSR et al.

Because that's what will happen with this sort of dimwitted fucktardery line of reason. These 'jobs that are available' (provided you kick all the illegal immigrants out - how you'd do that without going all military state would be interesting to know) would be filled, provided you cut all income support across the board (except for the disabled and veterans I assume), and the unemployment rate would barely have a dent put into it. Very soon you'd find the payscale of all formerly minimum wage jobs dropping dramatically causing a domino effect that would see income across the board from the poor to the middle class falling decreasing terribly. The legs of your economy now cut out from beneath you you'd find that corporate profits would go into a freefall, offices, factories, retailers, and service industries would cut back operations dramatically or close outright. The people formerly employed at those places would soon find themselves and their families starving on the streets or fighting over jobs which would put some food in their tents in the public parks. The housing market would crash. Loans would be defaulted and mortgages foreclosed en masse. You'd have mass starvation, mass civil unrest, and open rebellion. The military would need be deployed in force (fuck the Posse Comitatus act) to stop a full scale rebellion, curfews enacted, travel and communications restricted, and your country would become everything you've always feared - run by a government of tyrants and oppressors of the people until its inevitable collapse into total anarchy and ruin as the funds to pay for your infrastructure expire.

Yep. These people are thoroughly short-sighted. The poor NEVER just accept this state of affairs. They ALWAYS rise up at some point, and off go the heads of the tyrants who pushed the system on them. And when we go all french revolution style on these cunts in the near future, i'll be their supporting the poor in their endeavours. Neoliberalism is the most vile thing since authoritarian communism. And it's going to turn out the same way. And instead of Ceacescu swinging from a rope, it will be todays politicians.

[pErvinalia]

Of course they are subject to minimum wage and labor laws. Folks may be violating those laws, but the laws still apply.

It is illegal to employ an alien without work authorization anyway, and those who are undocumented and illegally present cannot have work authorization.

What point are you trying to make here? It is illegal to employ an illegal alien. As they are illegal aliens and are illegally employed, the labour laws are not applied to them. If their employer demands 80 hours a week and takes bathroom breaks out of their pay, there's fuck all they can do. These are the sort of working conditions for these 'available jobs' Seth goes on about.

Yep and this is why the government is traditionally no to active in getting rid of them. It provides a short term boost to the economy by exploiting desperate people.

[pErvinalia]

All because some nitwits thought the unemployment problem could be solved by cutting the bottom out of the tin can that contains your workforce.

You really don't understand free market economics at all, do you...

That's because there's no such thing, and there never can be.

[Seth]

What Seth fails to realise is that those 12 million jobs are only viable because of the shit wages they pay them.

Which "shit" wages are orders of magnitude better than the shit wages they can get in Mexico, which is why they come here and work their asses off. If they don't, they get to live on the edge of starvation in Mexico.

Time to send them back and show our indolent unemployed what it's really like to be out of work. Or, send our unemployed to Mexico to get a real taste of how the world actually works.

That's nice. Once again you are using empty diversion away from the hole in your argument. We were talking about the supposed heaps of jobs available for the so-called indolent in your society. Once I pointed out that the unemployment rate in your country is through the roof, you shifted to immigrants, as if this answered the first point I made to you. Then I pointed out WHY you've got so many immigrants, and you shift the argument again. Surely you can do better than this?

And I rebutted your lame argument by demonstrating that there are plenty of jobs out there for legal US workers to work at that will give them something useful to do and will at least partially support them, thereby relieving the burden on the public purse that they create. But those jobs are currently being held by illegal aliens who have no right to be here or work here. Those illegals should be deported and replaced by unemployed American workers.

Just try, as a legal American worker, to get a job framing houses or doing roofing. Good luck with that, because like the manicure industry, which is dominated by Asians, framing and roofing are dominated by illegal aliens. Kick them out and those jobs will be available for Americans, which will reduce the unemployment rate and the burden on the public purse.

It's still cheaper for the employer when you take all things into account like health care and workplace safety. If it wasn't they would hire the locals.

Sure, it's always cheaper to hire illegal workers and pay them illegally low wages. But then again the reason that employers do this is to stay in business when faced with idiot do-gooders who keep demanding higher and higher minimum wages. But it's illegal for employers to skirt the law, and it frequently costs them a lot of money, and sometimes their whole business, when they get caught doing it, which is why the number of minimum wage or below workers in the US in 2010 was only six percent. This means that 94 percent of workers in the US get paid more than minimum wage.

Once again, another diversionary tactic from you. Can't you just debate an argument straight up without mixing in all your other hobby horses into it? The fact of the matter is, the jobs aren't available for the unemployed. You like to blame the unemployed, as that's what your twisted ideology and morals dictates you do, and the rest of us know where the real blame lies, the politicians and the economy.

The point is that the jobs WOULD BE AVAILABLE to the unemployed if they were not already being occupied by illegal aliens, and if Americans were not so lazy and privileged, something that's facilitated by allowing them to meet their basic Maslowvian needs for food and shelter by redistributing someone elses money to them in the form of unemployment or welfare payments. This puts paid to the notion that there are no jobs out there. This is simply a false claim. There are plenty of jobs out there, it's just that they aren't the desirable, high paying jobs that Americans have come to think are their rightful due. They are low-paying (but paying) semi-skilled and unskilled scut-work jobs that nonetheless will help unemployed individuals to fend for themselves and not leech off the rest of us. That the low-paying unskilled jobs are being held by illegal aliens is proof absolute of the unwillingness of Americans to demean themselves by flipping burgers or changing sheets in a motel or picking peaches in Palisade.

In Palisade, Colorado last year, peach orchard owners offered wages of $25.00 per hour for orchard laborers who were legal US citizens. Few people even responded to the ads, and those that did usually lasted less than a week, often lasting less than a DAY doing the hard work required. The situation was so bad that the orchard owners went to the Labor Department to get H2-A visas for foreign seasonal agricultural workers who would stay the whole growing season.

The indolent unemployed need to be made uncomfortable in their unemployment, so uncomfortable that they will willingly work picking peaches in Palisade rather than starve and freeze in the dark because nobody will support their idleness anymore.

[pErvinalia]

What Seth fails to realise is that those 12 million jobs are only viable because of the shit wages they pay them.

Which "shit" wages are orders of magnitude better than the shit wages they can get in Mexico, which is why they come here and work their asses off. If they don't, they get to live on the edge of starvation in Mexico.

Time to send them back and show our indolent unemployed what it's really like to be out of work. Or, send our unemployed to Mexico to get a real taste of how the world actually works.

That's nice. Once again you are using empty diversion away from the hole in your argument. We were talking about the supposed heaps of jobs available for the so-called indolent in your society. Once I pointed out that the unemployment rate in your country is through the roof, you shifted to immigrants, as if this answered the first point I made to you. Then I pointed out WHY you've got so many immigrants, and you shift the argument again. Surely you can do better than this?

And I rebutted your lame argument by demonstrating that there are plenty of jobs out there for legal US workers to work at that will give them something useful to do and will at least partially support them, thereby relieving the burden on the public purse that they create. But those jobs are currently being held by illegal aliens who have no right to be here or work here. Those illegals should be deported and replaced by unemployed American workers.

And how does that do anything to support your claim that the unemployed in America are unemployed because they are lazy on not willing to work? You've just admitted that they can't do the work because the work is being taken by illegals. Are you on drugs at the moment or something?

Just try, as a legal American worker, to get a job framing houses or doing roofing. Good luck with that, because like the manicure industry, which is dominated by Asians, framing and roofing are dominated by illegal aliens.

Um.. that's what we've been saying. The work ISN'T there for the legals. Why are you undermining your own argument?

It's still cheaper for the employer when you take all things into account like health care and workplace safety. If it wasn't they would hire the locals.

Sure, it's always cheaper to hire illegal workers and pay them illegally low wages. But then again the reason that employers do this is to stay in business when faced with idiot do-gooders who keep demanding higher and higher minimum wages. But it's illegal for employers to skirt the law, and it frequently costs them a lot of money, and sometimes their whole business, when they get caught doing it, which is why the number of minimum wage or below workers in the US in 2010 was only six percent. This means that 94 percent of workers in the US get paid more than minimum wage.

None of this supports your stupid claim that unemployed people are lazy.

Once again, another diversionary tactic from you. Can't you just debate an argument straight up without mixing in all your other hobby horses into it? The fact of the matter is, the jobs aren't available for the unemployed. You like to blame the unemployed, as that's what your twisted ideology and morals dictates you do, and the rest of us know where the real blame lies, the politicians and the economy.

The point is that the jobs WOULD BE AVAILABLE to the unemployed if they were not already being occupied by illegal aliens, and if Americans were not so lazy and privileged, something that's facilitated by allowing them to meet their basic Maslowvian needs for food and shelter by redistributing someone elses money to them in the form of unemployment or welfare payments. This puts paid to the notion that there are no jobs out there.

What?!? You've just agreed above that the jobs aren't out there because the illegals take them. Either the jobs are there or they aren't. Which one is it? We aren't talking about in some hypothetical Sethdom where you kick all the illegals out, strip away minimum wages and working conditions and welfare. AT PRESENT, the jobs simply aren't there for the legals. Therefore, your claim that they are lazy is based on nothing other than your own bigotry.

In Palisade, Colorado last year, peach orchard owners offered wages of $25.00 per hour for orchard laborers who were legal US citizens. Few people even responded to the ads, and those that did usually lasted less than a week, often lasting less than a DAY doing the hard work required. The situation was so bad that the orchard owners went to the Labor Department to get H2-A visas for foreign seasonal agricultural workers who would stay the whole growing season.

Great anecdote. If this applied across the board, then you wouldn't have so many illegals working in your country.

The indolent unemployed need to be made uncomfortable in their unemployment, so uncomfortable that they will willingly work picking peaches in Palisade rather than starve and freeze in the dark because nobody will support their idleness anymore.

I can't wait till the revolution happens and they make you uncomfortable in your hate and arrogance. It will be a sweet day when the evil cunts in our society get what's coming to them.

[Jason]

I read the first few responses made by Seth before my eyes got tired from rolling. Perhaps I'll respond to his argument of 'wall of bullshit', maybe not. I'm just chillin' now.

[pErvinalia]

Don't bother. There's no point. Been there done that a thousand times. The man couldn't see reason if it jumped up and smacked him in the face.

[Drewish]

How topics like this go. People are talking. Discussion back and forth. Seth comes in and posts. Suddenly everyone on the left starts responding to Seth's posts, saying he's hopeless, and ignoring everyone else arguing from the right. Everyone on the left pats themselves on the back and blame Seth for ruining the thread.

Here's a hint people, if you think Seth should be ignored, then ignore him. Don't use complaining about him and talking about how everyone should[/] be ignoring him as an excuse to declare victory.

[Kristie]

How topics like this go. People are talking. Discussion back and forth. Seth comes in and posts. Suddenly everyone on the left starts responding to Seth's posts, saying he's hopeless, and ignoring everyone else arguing from the right. Everyone on the left pats themselves on the back and blame Seth for ruining the thread.

Here's a hint people, if you think Seth should be ignored, then ignore him. Don't use complaining about him and talking about how everyone should[/] be ignoring him as an excuse to declare victory.

Ok, I'll skip blaming him and declare victory anyway!

[Seth]

What Seth fails to realise is that those 12 million jobs are only viable because of the shit wages they pay them.

Which "shit" wages are orders of magnitude better than the shit wages they can get in Mexico, which is why they come here and work their asses off. If they don't, they get to live on the edge of starvation in Mexico.

Time to send them back and show our indolent unemployed what it's really like to be out of work. Or, send our unemployed to Mexico to get a real taste of how the world actually works.

That's nice. Once again you are using empty diversion away from the hole in your argument. We were talking about the supposed heaps of jobs available for the so-called indolent in your society. Once I pointed out that the unemployment rate in your country is through the roof, you shifted to immigrants, as if this answered the first point I made to you. Then I pointed out WHY you've got so many immigrants, and you shift the argument again. Surely you can do better than this?

And I rebutted your lame argument by demonstrating that there are plenty of jobs out there for legal US workers to work at that will give them something useful to do and will at least partially support them, thereby relieving the burden on the public purse that they create. But those jobs are currently being held by illegal aliens who have no right to be here or work here. Those illegals should be deported and replaced by unemployed American workers.

And how does that do anything to support your claim that the unemployed in America are unemployed because they are lazy on not willing to work? You've just admitted that they can't do the work because the work is being taken by illegals.

They don't WANT to do the work. If they wanted to do the work, they could have the illegals fired and deported merely by reporting the employer to ICE, and then they could apply for the jobs.

Are you on drugs at the moment or something?

Several actually. A couple of them help significantly in producing reasoned and well-supported arguments full of logic and good sense...unlike any of your arguments. Perhaps you should try some drugs, might help your cognitive abilities. Then again, probably not.

[Seth]

How topics like this go. People are talking. Discussion back and forth. Seth comes in and posts. Suddenly everyone on the left starts responding to Seth's posts, saying he's hopeless, and ignoring everyone else arguing from the right. Everyone on the left pats themselves on the back and blame Seth for ruining the thread.

Quite right. The peanut gallery hates it when I interrupt their masturbatory circle-jerk style of "discussion" with some actual contrary opinions, facts and reasoning.

Here's a hint people, if you think Seth should be ignored, then ignore him. Don't use complaining about him and talking about how everyone should[/] be ignoring him as an excuse to declare victory.

Or, better yet, leave the personalities out of it and try formulating a well-reasoned, logical argument based on actual facts that support your claims and conclusions rather than spouting ignorant leftist propaganda and hurling ad homs about at every turn.

[Seth]

I read the first few responses made by Seth before my eyes got tired from rolling. Perhaps I'll respond to his argument of 'wall of bullshit', maybe not. I'm just chillin' now.

Don't strain your tiny crevice of a mind trying to challenge your intellectual better, Pord. Just sit back, have another beer and realize that you're trying to play far out of your league and are bound to be embarrassed and humiliated when your lame arguments are thoughtfully and rationally deconstructed and swept into the dustbin of poor reasoning.

[Seth]

Don't bother. There's no point. Been there done that a thousand times. The man couldn't see reason if it jumped up and smacked him in the face.

If you'd ever even once produced a reasoned argument I might respond differently. Unfortunately, the very best you can do, after all these years of my wasted attempts to educate you, is to spew more and more socialist propaganda. You're far too deeply indoctrinated into the unreasoning of socialism to ever be helped I'm afraid. Very sad, really, but not unexpected.

[pErvinalia]

I am Stalin!