You guys and your guns...

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Seth
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:55 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:China is capitalist now, Seth. Hadn't you heard? :)
Still Communist.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:59 pm

If I was you, i'd claim it as capitalist. That's what all the young hip capitalist do these days. It's economy is shitting all over everyone elses. It also potentially holds the US over it's knee with all it's debt.

But more seriously, it's pretty much universally described as "state capitalist" these days. Although, I personally have troubles distinguishing the point at which capitalism becomes socialism and vice versa.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:08 pm

Seth wrote:
Wumbologist wrote:Seth, what's your take on the Norinco MAK-90? Quality build AK, or something to pass on?
Don't know anything about them, but it's hard to screw up an AK, it's such a simple and reliable (if not very accurate) design. However, I don't favor buying ANY Communist-China made firearm for political reasons. I'm an H&K fan myself.

Glorious Chinese Communist firearm... I might have to go for it. :hehe:

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:09 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:If I was you, i'd claim it as capitalist. That's what all the young hip capitalist do these days. It's economy is shitting all over everyone elses. It also potentially holds the US over it's knee with all it's debt.
Indeed. Were I in charge, I'd ban all economic trade and repudiate all debts with China tomorrow, and damn the torpedoes.
But more seriously, it's pretty much universally described as "state capitalist" these days. Although, I personally have troubles distinguishing the point at which capitalism becomes socialism and vice versa.
It's simple to distinguish "state capitalism" from "capitalism." One need only determine who owns or controls the means of production and profits. If both are owned and controlled by individuals, it's capitalism. If either is owned or controlled by a central government authority, as in China, it's Communism (state socialism)

China is still a state socialist communist regime that controls (ultimately) all means of production and profits. Norinco, specifically, is an organ of the Chinese military, and the profits go directly to Chinese military expansionism and outright acts of war and sedition within the United States.
In 1994, some employees of Norinco came under federal investigation from both the FBI as well as the ATF after a successful sting dubbed "Operation Dragon Fire." In May 1996, in what was called "the largest seizure of fully operational automatic weapons in U.S. history,"[8] 14 individuals and an Atlanta, Georgia company were indicted for the unlicensed importation and sale of 2,000 Type 56's into the United States. U.S. Customs agents posing as arms traffickers convinced a group of Chinese arms dealers, including three Norinco representatives, that they were in the market to buy guns for drug rings and street gangs.[9] "The defendants offered the government undercover agents more sophisticated weapons, including hand-held rocket launchers, mortars, anti-aircraft missiles, silenced machine guns and even tanks," said Wayne Yamashita of the U.S. Customs Service.[10] The Customs Service discovered during the investigation that these weapons were bound for Oakland, California street gangs.[11] According to an affidavit signed by two of the undercover agents involved in the investigation, representatives from Norinco offered to sell urban gangs shoulder-held missile launchers capable of downing a large commercial airliner.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:16 pm

Seth wrote:
In 1994, some employees of Norinco came under federal investigation from both the FBI as well as the ATF after a successful sting dubbed "Operation Dragon Fire." In May 1996, in what was called "the largest seizure of fully operational automatic weapons in U.S. history,"[8] 14 individuals and an Atlanta, Georgia company were indicted for the unlicensed importation and sale of 2,000 Type 56's into the United States. U.S. Customs agents posing as arms traffickers convinced a group of Chinese arms dealers, including three Norinco representatives, that they were in the market to buy guns for drug rings and street gangs.[9] "The defendants offered the government undercover agents more sophisticated weapons, including hand-held rocket launchers, mortars, anti-aircraft missiles, silenced machine guns and even tanks," said Wayne Yamashita of the U.S. Customs Service.[10] The Customs Service discovered during the investigation that these weapons were bound for Oakland, California street gangs.[11] According to an affidavit signed by two of the undercover agents involved in the investigation, representatives from Norinco offered to sell urban gangs shoulder-held missile launchers capable of downing a large commercial airliner.
So, pre-94 was the time to get a Type 56... :fp:

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:22 pm

Wumbologist wrote:
Seth wrote:
In 1994, some employees of Norinco came under federal investigation from both the FBI as well as the ATF after a successful sting dubbed "Operation Dragon Fire." In May 1996, in what was called "the largest seizure of fully operational automatic weapons in U.S. history,"[8] 14 individuals and an Atlanta, Georgia company were indicted for the unlicensed importation and sale of 2,000 Type 56's into the United States. U.S. Customs agents posing as arms traffickers convinced a group of Chinese arms dealers, including three Norinco representatives, that they were in the market to buy guns for drug rings and street gangs.[9] "The defendants offered the government undercover agents more sophisticated weapons, including hand-held rocket launchers, mortars, anti-aircraft missiles, silenced machine guns and even tanks," said Wayne Yamashita of the U.S. Customs Service.[10] The Customs Service discovered during the investigation that these weapons were bound for Oakland, California street gangs.[11] According to an affidavit signed by two of the undercover agents involved in the investigation, representatives from Norinco offered to sell urban gangs shoulder-held missile launchers capable of downing a large commercial airliner.
So, pre-94 was the time to get a Type 56... :fp:
Nope. They never made it into circulation. Besides, it uses non-standard ammo (US standard that is) so you're better off with a .223/5.56 NATO M-16 variant, for which ammo is commonly available, and also available from dead minions of the tyrant, should it come to that.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:34 pm

Seth wrote:
Nope. They never made it into circulation. Besides, it uses non-standard ammo (US standard that is) so you're better off with a .223/5.56 NATO M-16 variant, for which ammo is commonly available, and also available from dead minions of the tyrant, should it come to that.
Ah, you're right once again. As glorious as weapons forged by the People's Republic may be, when it comes down to it, the most practical method would be to use weapons taken from fallen enforcers of the bourgeoisie masters we seek to overthrow. Thanks for the insight, comrade.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:42 pm

Wumbologist wrote:
Seth wrote:
Nope. They never made it into circulation. Besides, it uses non-standard ammo (US standard that is) so you're better off with a .223/5.56 NATO M-16 variant, for which ammo is commonly available, and also available from dead minions of the tyrant, should it come to that.
Ah, you're right once again. As glorious as weapons forged by the People's Republic may be, when it comes down to it, the most practical method would be to use weapons taken from fallen enforcers of the bourgeoisie masters we seek to overthrow. Thanks for the insight, comrade.
One must always consider battlefield logistics when planning for combat, which is the only reason I own 5.56 NATO caliber firearms, which are mostly unsuitable for my preferred form of combat: long-range sniping. But it's a useful close-combat caliber, so I own a bunch of SIG 556 and Colt AR-15 style rifles, as well as a number of .45 and 9mm caliber handguns. I also have a number of .308/7.62 NATO rifles as well.

Poor planning promotes piss poor performance.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:57 pm

Reading Seth's last post reaffirms for me that American gun culture is totally insane.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:59 pm

Blind groper wrote:Reading Seth's last post reaffirms for me that American gun culture is totally insane.
You think that culture is homogenous? That's Seth and I share viewpoints? Really? Or are you just indulging in sweeping generalizations to score a cheap shot?
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:07 am

Apologies Gawdzilla.
Seth's version of American gun culture is insane.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:09 am

Blind groper wrote:Apologies Gawdzilla.
Seth's version of American gun culture is insane.
:hugs: We agree then.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:10 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Reading Seth's last post reaffirms for me that American gun culture is totally insane.
You think that culture is homogenous? That's Seth and I share viewpoints? Really? Or are you just indulging in sweeping generalizations to score a cheap shot?
The latter, of course.

And if one believes one of the purposes of having individual firearms is to turn back domestic tyranny, then my sort of planning is anything but insane, it's perfectly rational.

And since the Founders created the 2nd Amendment in large part to facilitate exactly that sort of action by the people, it's hardly insane to adhere to their ideals, unless you're of the belief that a citizenry should never rise up in arms to put down a tyrant or retake a despotic government that is abusing its grant of authority from the People. That belief would be certifiably insane I'm afraid, and it appears that at least two people here meet that definition, I'm sad to say.

Edit: Make that three, at least.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Twoflower » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:24 am

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Reading Seth's last post reaffirms for me that American gun culture is totally insane.
You think that culture is homogenous? That's Seth and I share viewpoints? Really? Or are you just indulging in sweeping generalizations to score a cheap shot?
The latter, of course.

And if one believes one of the purposes of having individual firearms is to turn back domestic tyranny, then my sort of planning is anything but insane, it's perfectly rational.

And since the Founders created the 2nd Amendment in large part to facilitate exactly that sort of action by the people, it's hardly insane to adhere to their ideals, unless you're of the belief that a citizenry should never rise up in arms to put down a tyrant or retake a despotic government that is abusing its grant of authority from the People. That belief would be certifiably insane I'm afraid, and it appears that at least two people here meet that definition, I'm sad to say.

Edit: Make that three, at least.
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The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
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it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
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And dragged away and thrown away
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:15 am

History teaches us a simple lesson relating to tyranny.
That is : when it happens and good people rise against it, they find the means to fight with. The people of Syria today, fighting the tyranny of their so-called president, did not have much at all in the way of weapons before the revolution. Today they are defeating a modern army.

The people of the IRA (who I think were mistaken) found the wherewithall to rebel.
There is no need to do what Seth claims he is doing (I do not believe his rationalisations. I think he just has a sick fascination with weapons of murder.) In the extremely unlikely event that the government of the USA became tyrannical, the people would find the means to fight. For a start, as in Syria, half the armed forces would defect and bring their tools of the trade with them. In addition, friends of the rebels in other countries would supply tools and weapons. More weapons would be bought in. Weapons dealers always find a way to supply any rebellion.

For people like Seth to be running round with terrible weapons today is not protection. It is an invitation to disaster, like the nutter who attacked the Batman movie and the white racist who attacked the Sikh temple.
For every human action, there is a rationalisation and a reason. Only sometimes do they coincide.

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