California Taxpayer Protection Act of 2012

[Coito ergo sum]

What I don't understand is if a child is brought here let's say about 5 yrs of age, why then15 yrs later they still haven't taken any steps to become a legal citizen and still expect the same benefits as a legal immigrant?

When my family came here from Croatia it took about 5 yrs before we came to US to get all the legal paperwork done, and when we came here we already had our green cards. I don't know what it's called now. All of us, not just our parents.

If you came here with green cards, you came legally. It's much easier to get naturalized if you have a green card.

You can't get naturalized any other way. You have to have a green card. Not only is it "much easier" to get naturalized if you have a green card, you can't possibly get naturalized UNLESS you have a green card. Absent some special Congressional award or something, I suppose.

I had a green card when I arrived in 1957. I lost it....that's all. It took over 15 years for me to first get it replaced, then get naturalized - they wouldn't allow me to apply for naturalization until I had a physical green card.

Well - today, and for the last several decades, replacing a green card has been as easy as filing a form I-90. Current processing time for the form I90, Application for Replacement Green Card is 60-90 days. It's the same application used to renew.

I had to get two congresspeople involved. The BCIS is one of the most inefficient and cumbersome agencies in the US. It is nothing like the agency it was when you and I entered the US.

From the standpoint of replacing a green card, it's very easy. And, actually, present day processing times on most things are far better than they were in the 1990s.

But, you'll get no argument from me that the system and the agency should be overhauled and made more efficient. That, of course, has nothing to do with the OP, though.

I wonder, how much did it really cost, in taxpayer dollars to get me naturalized. (not to mention the exhorbinant fees that I had to pay, twice in some instances since due to their inefficiency applications elapsed and I had to re-apply and pay again)

That sounds strange. I filled out the N-400 for my wife - and we paid a fee (I think it was something like $400 or so). She signed it, a few months later she was called for an interview. They asked her a few questions about American history and government, and she was approved. In another couple of months, she appeared for the very moving swearing in ceremony. Easy-peasy. The whole process took 6 months.

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

Every teenager I ever knew was fully aware of the earliest possible date that they could lawfully drive, and was hell-bent on getting that drivers license.

Also, back in your day, you didn't need identification to enter an immigration office - now you do, so if an illegal child were to be accompanied by their illegal parent, the parent would be arrested.

You don't, actually. And, the parent wouldn't be arrested. That's ridiculous.

So, you want to make yourself legal, how do you do it if you don't have identification? Like a drivers license?

Easy, if you comply. Some folks can't make themselves legal because they may well be ineligible.

Drivers licenses have nothing at all to do with the immigration process. You don't have to have a drivers license.

So, let's say they are 20 and adult - remember, they don't have a drivers license or passport. So, somehow, you get in. When you apply for citizenship, one usually gives an address, you have to identify who your parents are, you have to swear you haven't done anything illegal - most young people are afraid to apply for fear they will bust their parents.

They have no ability to apply for citizenship, at all. You have to apply for a green card, or a non-immigrant visa.

I would, as I said, overhaul the process to deal with the limited subclass of persons you're talking about, mai. That doesn't mean we just don't bother enforcing immigration law, though. Every country has rules about immigration.

So, to answer your questions CES - some which have already done - I think it a bigger waste of both my California and Federal taxpayer dollars to enforce everything that this act is saying it will -

The act has nothing to do with what you just talked about. All the CA law is proposing is that they NOT issue a drivers license to an illegal alien, not provide public financing to illegal aliens, and if an illegal alien is arrested and the ICE issues a request for that person to be turned over, that the state authority will turn the person over.

What's the problem?

I would much rather see my money spent on educating someone who is interested in becoming educated, someone who needs health care, than on the congresspeople who must get involved for special cases to naturalize and get green cards for illegal immigrants, the cost to our police at the cost of real security, and the cost to the BCIS to emply the security tactics to oust illegal aliens out of the country.

I would think that the situation you're concerned about ought to be handled with a federal immigration process applicable to innocent children, and persons involuntarily brought to the United States who have no real connection to another country. Set some reasonable requirements, and for those that comply, let them stay.

The answer can't be what you seem to suggest. Why not just eliminate the entire immigration process and open the borders?

[maiforpeace]

I don't need to open the borders, but I'm OK with how things are now. If they want to do an in depth cost analysis and prove to me that enforcement of all of this is less than the cost to CALIFORNIA AND FEDERAL taxpayers now, I'll be happy to reconsider, but I will vote no to this act.

BTW - you are wrong about not needing ID to enter an immigration office...I just did a bunch of business with them, remember? At least, that's what they required in San Jose, CA.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't need to open the borders, but I'm OK with how things are now. If they want to do an in depth cost analysis and prove to me that enforcement of all of this is less than the cost to CALIFORNIA AND FEDERAL taxpayers now, I'll be happy to reconsider, but I will vote no to this act.

Far cry from it being "garbage" and "shit," though.

I can't argue with your value judgment on it. You think it's o.k. the way it is now, then, of course, that is your prerogative. I disagree. California's law doesn't solve the problem, but it does eliminate unfair largess bestowed upon illegal immigrants, and it requires mere enforcement of the law. I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd oppose a jail turning over a scofflaw to another law enforcement agency. Why do they get special treatment? If some other agency wants me and I'm arrested for DUI or something, they'll hold me and turn me over to the other agency.

Drivers licenses - why should illegal immigrants get special treatment? I can't go get a drivers license without proving I'm entitled to one. Why should they get one?

If a Frenchman can come here arbitrarily and get a Florida drivers license, then why can't I just run up to Georgia and get a Georgia drivers license?

We all have to follow the law - but for some reason, people advocate that it's wrong to require illegal immigrants follow the law too.

And, free college for illegal immigrants? I'd rather legal immigrants get the free college, thank you. Or, just NEEDY people.

You know what large numbers of illegal immigrants do? They work under the table, and then fraudulently claim government benefits as indigents. Example - illegal immigrant needs legal help --- has plenty of money - fills out application for free lawyer based on indigency, because she hides all her income.

[maiforpeace]

I don't need to open the borders, but I'm OK with how things are now. If they want to do an in depth cost analysis and prove to me that enforcement of all of this is less than the cost to CALIFORNIA AND FEDERAL taxpayers now, I'll be happy to reconsider, but I will vote no to this act.

Far cry from it being "garbage" and "shit," though.

I can't argue with your value judgment on it. You think it's o.k. the way it is now, then, of course, that is your prerogative. I disagree. California's law doesn't solve the problem, but it does eliminate unfair largess bestowed upon illegal immigrants, and it requires mere enforcement of the law. I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd oppose a jail turning over a scofflaw to another law enforcement agency. Why do they get special treatment? If some other agency wants me and I'm arrested for DUI or something, they'll hold me and turn me over to the other agency.

Drivers licenses - why should illegal immigrants get special treatment? I can't go get a drivers license without proving I'm entitled to one. Why should they get one?

If a Frenchman can come here arbitrarily and get a Florida drivers license, then why can't I just run up to Georgia and get a Georgia drivers license?

We all have to follow the law - but for some reason, people advocate that it's wrong to require illegal immigrants follow the law too.

And, free college for illegal immigrants? I'd rather legal immigrants get the free college, thank you. Or, just NEEDY people.

You know what large numbers of illegal immigrants do? They work under the table, and then fraudulently claim government benefits as indigents. Example - illegal immigrant needs legal help --- has plenty of money - fills out application for free lawyer based on indigency, because she hides all her income.

Believe me, I am very aware of what immigrants do. Our family sponsored over 16 refugees after the war in Vietnam. The Vietnamese are some of the worst offenders...talk about working the system. Some of them deserved to be busted, but of course being family (though hardly, they were cousins a million times removed and used my father to get over here) I couldn't do it.

EDIT:

One woman's garbage is another man's treasure, eh?

[kiki5711]

maiforpeace wrote:

I had a green card when I arrived in 1957. I lost it....that's all. It took over 15 years for me to first get it replaced, then get naturalized - they wouldn't allow me to apply for naturalization until I had a physical green card.

I also lost mine once and it took a few months to get a new one. And I wasn''t even living with my parents at that time, no expense, just providing some documents etc..fill out forms.

My parents got their citizenship before I did. I just didn't bother since I was travelliing so much and having the green card I could still do everything legally, but once I settled down I went for it too. And the most important thing to them was "whether I'd paid my taxes every year and whether I was ever involved in any communist organization ever". They asked my who the first President of US was also. That wasn't hard. Three questions and I passed.

To come to US legally is much more productive for all involved. All they need is someone that is here legally already to sponser them and get the legal documents rolling. It might cost some lawyer money but in the long run it will be much better off for them and for other citizens of US. That way when you come here, you are secure, your children are secure and you don't have to look over your shoulder to get caught and sent back. But because word of mouth is you can just jump ship there and get once you cross the border and you can make money because you can be exploited with cheaper labor that as long as you keep on the low, keeps them coming illegaly.

[Coito ergo sum]

The idea that US immigration is some onerous thing that excludes people is ridiculous. The US still welcomes immigrants as generously as any other country, and far more generously than most.

2009 -- 1.1 million green cards were issued. One million per year is typical these days. Every four to five years, the US adds the entire population of Norway to its population of permanent residents.

2008 - over 1 million people became naturalized US citizens, and for 2009 and 2010, the figure is about 750,000 per year.

12.5 %of the United States population is foreign born. That's the sucky-ass immigrant-unfriendly United States. 12.5% of the total population is foreign born.

Of all immigrants in the world (those who immigrated to another country) 20% of them -- 1 in 5 -- immigrated to the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... on_in_2005

Thus, the US has 4.7% of the world's population, and 20% of the world's immigrants.

So, to those who say the US is not friendly to immigrants, I can only say that the numbers speak for themselves. We are the friendliest country to immigrants. We are the country that 1 in 5 immigrants, out of all 192+ countries in the world, want to come to.

Is it too much to ask that the ones who are sneaking in through the border, illegally entering, and fraudulently availing themselves of public largess, driving illegally, working illegally and the like, just go home and wait their fucking turn?

EDIT: And, of course, the US is alleged to be racist in its immigration policies -- however, we have the following as the list of top 10 countries in terms of number of LEGAL immigrants to the US:

1. Mexico (166,271)
2. India (64,857)
3. China (60,720)
4. Philippines (53,171)
5. Vietnam (39,915)
6. Dominican Republic (33,230)
7. Pakistan (25,972)
8. Haiti (24,726)
9. South Korea (23,077)
10. El Salvador (17,193)

Yeah...we suck.

[Seth]

What I don't understand is if a child is brought here let's say about 5 yrs of age, why then15 yrs later they still haven't taken any steps to become a legal citizen and still expect the same benefits as a legal immigrant?

When my family came here from Croatia it took about 5 yrs before we came to US to get all the legal paperwork done, and when we came here we already had our green cards. I don't know what it's called now. All of us, not just our parents.

If you came here with green cards, you came legally. It's much easier to get naturalized if you have a green card.

I had a green card when I arrived in 1957. I lost it....that's all. It took over 15 years for me to first get it replaced, then get naturalized - they wouldn't allow me to apply for naturalization until I had a physical green card.

I find that pretty hard to believe. You lose your card, you file an I-90 form, and then they mail you a new card. It happens all the time and the record of your authorization to be here isn't the card, it's in the files in Washington. Now, I can believe it took you 15 years to get naturalized. It's not easy, and it shouldn't be easy.

I had to get two congresspeople involved. At least, since 9/11, the BCIS has become of the most inefficient and cumbersome agencies in the US. It is nothing like the agency it was when you and I entered the US. I wonder, how much did it really cost, in taxpayer dollars to get me naturalized. (not to mention the exorbinant fees that I had to pay, twice in some instances since due to their inefficiency applications elapsed and I had to re-apply and pay again)

Might have something to do with all the fake green cards they have to deal with and huge numbers of people that apply, and the limits Congress puts on immigration. Oh well, it's our country and we get to determine who gets in and who doesn't. You're one of the lucky ones.

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

Presence of mind? You're kidding, right? When I turned 15 I was bugging my mom on my birthday to take me to the DMV to get my learners permit. I was crushed when we couldn't make it because it was a Friday and I had to wait the whole weekend to go Monday afternoon. If I were an immigrant with a green card, I'd pay damned close attention to deadlines and dates if I wanted to become a US citizen. If it's not important enough for you to pay attention to, then why should we extend the privilege to you?

Also, back in your day, you didn't need identification to enter an immigration office - now you do, so if an illegal child were to be accompanied by their illegal parent, the parent would be arrested.

Oh well. If you're here illegally, why do you need to go to the immigration office? You need to go back to your country and apply from there...after waiting 10 years as a penalty for trying to jump the queue of people who applied the right way.

So, you want to make yourself legal, how do you do it if you don't have identification like a drivers license?

Go back to your native country and file the proper paperwork from there and wait your damned turn, that's how.

So, let's say they are 20 and adult - remember, they don't have a drivers license or passport. So, somehow, you get in to the office, probably only with the intervention of your local congressperson. When you apply for citizenship, one usually gives an address, you have to identify who your parents are, you have to swear you haven't done anything illegal - most young people are afraid to apply for fear they will bust their parents.

If your 20, you should be living on your own and have your own address, and your own job. If your 20 and indigent and living with your parents, we don't need you here because you're just sucking at the public welfare teat and costing the rest of us money. Go home to your own country and apply and wait your turn.

So, to answer your questions CES - some which have already done - I think it a bigger waste of both my California and Federal taxpayer dollars to enforce everything that this act is saying it will - I would much rather see my money spent on educating someone who is interested in becoming educated, someone who needs health care, than on the congresspeople who must get involved for special cases to naturalize and get green cards for illegal immigrants, the cost to our police at the cost of real security, and the cost to the BCIS to employ the security tactics to oust illegal aliens out of the country.

Well, most of the rest of us don't. We want our tax dollars spent on helping American citizens in need. Illegal aliens need to be rounded up and deported whenever they are caught, and our borders need to be secured so that they can't easily get back in because they don't have a right to be here and they are stealing from everyone. They need to apply and wait their turn if they want to come here, and do it legally.

[Seth]

I don't need to open the borders, but I'm OK with how things are now. If they want to do an in depth cost analysis and prove to me that enforcement of all of this is less than the cost to CALIFORNIA AND FEDERAL taxpayers now, I'll be happy to reconsider, but I will vote no to this act.

BTW - you are wrong about not needing ID to enter an immigration office...I just did a bunch of business with them, remember? At least, that's what they required in San Jose, CA.

So? What business does an illegal alien have with an immigration office other than to turn themselves in to be deported? None. If you're here illegally you cannot apply for a green card. The law is very explicit on that. And it's a good law because it discourages people who want to apply for citizenship from coming here illegally and then begging for a green card once they get here and thus gaining a path to citizenship.

Go home, (or stay home) apply from there, and wait your turn. And that includes children smuggled into the US.

[maiforpeace]

I'd be lying if I didn't admit I vote with my heart too..sorry, I know that probably annoys some people considerably.

Well, kinda sorry.

[kiki5711]

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

I did. And I spoke broken English and did it all myself, no help from my parents. I learned how to drive on one of those old Lincoln Towncars (my father's car) that was as long as a bus. I also started working part time at a bakery at 14 and helped my parents with household expenses and had my own pocket money.

[Coito ergo sum]

What I don't understand is if a child is brought here let's say about 5 yrs of age, why then15 yrs later they still haven't taken any steps to become a legal citizen and still expect the same benefits as a legal immigrant?

When my family came here from Croatia it took about 5 yrs before we came to US to get all the legal paperwork done, and when we came here we already had our green cards. I don't know what it's called now. All of us, not just our parents.

If you came here with green cards, you came legally. It's much easier to get naturalized if you have a green card.

I had a green card when I arrived in 1957. I lost it....that's all. It took over 15 years for me to first get it replaced, then get naturalized - they wouldn't allow me to apply for naturalization until I had a physical green card.

I find that pretty hard to believe. You lose your card, you file an I-90 form, and then they mail you a new card. It happens all the time and the record of your authorization to be here isn't the card, it's in the files in Washington. Now, I can believe it took you 15 years to get naturalized. It's not easy, and it shouldn't be easy.

I have to correct you here. It is easy. VERY easy to be naturalized. It takes about 6 months from the time you file the N-400 and pay the fee, until you get sworn in at a ceremony.

The hard part is to get a green card. That's the much harder part because there are far more background checks and screening and investigation. At the point of Naturalization, the work was already done to verify that you're eligible for permanent residence, and all they do is verify that you paid your taxes, haven't been convicted of a serious crime in the interim.

When my wife applied, I filled out the form, and it took me about 20 minutes to do it. Submit the form with the fee, and in a few weeks you get a receipt notice and an appointment for fingerprinting. She went and got fingerprints, then a notice for the date and time of the interview. You show up, they ask you a few questions just like Kiki said, and that's it.

What's "not easy" about it?

[Coito ergo sum]

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

Presence of mind? You're kidding, right? When I turned 15 I was bugging my mom on my birthday to take me to the DMV to get my learners permit. I was crushed when we couldn't make it because it was a Friday and I had to wait the whole weekend to go Monday afternoon. If I were an immigrant with a green card, I'd pay damned close attention to deadlines and dates if I wanted to become a US citizen. If it's not important enough for you to pay attention to, then why should we extend the privilege to you?

Drivers licenses have nothing to do with immigration. It doesn't matter if a 15 year old remembers or not. Nobody is required to have a drivers license.

Also, back in your day, you didn't need identification to enter an immigration office - now you do, so if an illegal child were to be accompanied by their illegal parent, the parent would be arrested.

Oh well. If you're here illegally, why do you need to go to the immigration office? You need to go back to your country and apply from there...after waiting 10 years as a penalty for trying to jump the queue of people who applied the right way.

So, you want to make yourself legal, how do you do it if you don't have identification like a drivers license?

Go back to your native country and file the proper paperwork from there and wait your damned turn, that's how.

Sometimes - it depends. There are different means and methods. Sometimes status can be adjusted here. The most common method is through marriage. Get married to a US citizen, even if you're out of status you can get a green card in 4-5 months.

[maiforpeace]

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

I did. And I spoke broken English and did it all myself, no help from my parents. I learned how to drive on one of those old Lincoln Towncars (my father's car) that was as long as a bus. I also started working part time at a bakery at 14 and helped my parents with household expenses and had my own pocket money.

As I posted elsewhere Kiki, not all people have the ability to pull themselves up by their bootstraps like you did - it's just a sad fact. And I would say that in the case of most Mexican immigrants, which in California is mostly who we are referring to, it's not laziness that prevents them from doing so, it's fear.

I volunteer for Sunday Friends. I have a lot of contact with illegal, Mexican immigrants. We help them to do exactly what we are discussing here...assimilate them to become legal. One of the first steps is to get them in the tax system. Yes, that's actually one of the ways....they start to pay taxes on income they earned without legal status (obviously not on illegal activity). We can't assist all these families fast enough...they are eager to do what they can to become legal, even if it means they don't get to reap the benefits that paying taxes provide until they get a green card. Then, the next step is getting the local congressperson involved to help. It takes time, and resources and so far all they get in the form of assistance is the help that organizations like Sunday Friends can provide.

Maybe it's my personal contact with these actual immigrants that we are discussing that makes me a bleeding heart liberal, but I do empathize and would rather lend them a helping hand than kick them to the curb.

[Coito ergo sum]

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

I did. And I spoke broken English and did it all myself, no help from my parents. I learned how to drive on one of those old Lincoln Towncars (my father's car) that was as long as a bus. I also started working part time at a bakery at 14 and helped my parents with household expenses and had my own pocket money.

That's why I highly respect immigrants.

I saw that same ethic in my parents, and I see it in my wife and all the immigrants I know.

What they as a group aren't is either lazy or irresponsible.

[Coito ergo sum]

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

I did. And I spoke broken English and did it all myself, no help from my parents. I learned how to drive on one of those old Lincoln Towncars (my father's car) that was as long as a bus. I also started working part time at a bakery at 14 and helped my parents with household expenses and had my own pocket money.

As I posted elsewhere Kiki, not all people have the ability to pull themselves up by their bootstraps like you did - it's just a sad fact. And I would say that in the case of most Mexican immigrants, which in California is mostly who we are referring to, it's not laziness that prevents them from doing so, it's fear.

That just isn't born out by the numbers, and is a rather denigrating thing to say about Mexicans. More Mexicans come to the US permanently, legally, than from any other country in the world, and they have no harder time making their way here than any other ethnic group. The Cubans do fine, the Mexicans do fine, the Philippinos, and the Indians and the Chinese - all doing quite well.

Obviously, we can trot out the "not all" mantra -- not everyone can do this -- not everyone can do that - well, of course not. Not all of everyone will ever be able to do this or that or the other thing.

I volunteer for Sunday Friends. I have a lot of contact with illegal, Mexican immigrants. We help them to do exactly what we are discussing here...assimilate them to become legal. One of the first steps is to get them in the tax system. Yes, that's actually one of the ways....they start to pay taxes on income they earned without legal status (obviously not on illegal activity). We can't assist all these families fast enough...they are eager to do what they can to become legal, even if it means they don't get to reap the benefits that paying taxes provide until they get a green card. Then, the next step is getting the local congressperson involved to help. It takes time, and resources and so far all they get in the form of assistance is help like like Sunday Friends can provide.

What documents do you have them file with the BCIS/immigration service to give them status? Mostly marriage based petitions? Or refugee/asylee petitions?

Maybe it's my personal contact with these actual immigrants that we are discussing that makes me a bleeding heart liberal, but I do empathize and would rather lend them a helping hand than kick them to the curb.

I agree with you, and I understand your feelings.

You're not the only one who has "personal contact with these actual immigrants that we are discussing." I have actual, personal contact with a family full of them, including my parents and immediate relatives, aunts, uncles, cousins. I have a wife who is an immigrant, and she has some family as well. We have dozens of friends and acquaintances that are immigrants. Some of them are illegal, and have admitted to being illegal.

Now - kicking to the curb --

If an illegal immigrant is arrested, and there is an immigrant detainer from DHS out there (which is a notice from ICE that a person is sought by that agency), is it "kicking them to the curb" to require local law enforcement to honor that and turn them over? How so? Is it "kicking someone to the curb" if they're arrested for, say, DUI, and then they pop up with a warrant on a federal charge that they be turned over to those authorities?

If someone is here from Argentina, Mexico or Germany, they can drive on the roadways with their foreign drivers license, and that's fine. What do they need a California or Florida drivers license for? Is that "kicking them to the curb?" Am I being kicked to the curb because I can't have Georgia or a Mexican or German drivers license?

And, public aid -- a person knowingly comes to the US without proper paperwork, and they know they can't legally work, so they want the people of California to foot the bill? Denying them that is "kicking them to the curb?"

I get the sympathy and the empathy part. Believe me, I love the immigrants I know, and I respect their work ethic and their industriousness. However, when the legal immigrants I know get together and talk about this, they are more outraged than me at what the illegals get away with.