Irish Republic Closes Vatican Embassy

[Seth]

Dangerous..
a) the Papal States maybe the oldest actual political entity on the European scene, and even though most of their possessions have been stripped from them, the implications of abolishing their sovereign state status entirely, especially on the part of 'enlightened' Western democracies would be incalculable, and would probably morally vindicate all sorts of evil, since we find that kind of things acceptable.

The Papal states are the ones morally vindicating all sorts of evil.

Such as?

[klr]

Dangerous..
a) the Papal States maybe the oldest actual political entity on the European scene, and even though most of their possessions have been stripped from them, the implications of abolishing their sovereign state status entirely, especially on the part of 'enlightened' Western democracies would be incalculable, and would probably morally vindicate all sorts of evil, since we find that kind of things acceptable.
b) Whether you like it or not, the Vatican is a major diplomatic hub, equal to Paris, London, DC, NYNY or Moscow... cut yourself from it at your own peril.

It is probably the single biggest intelligence operation on the planet. A representative in nearly every parish on the planet. This an their claim to be in charge of hundreds of millions gives them an unwarranted position in the diplomatic world.

Oh, I don't know, the fact that they represent a BILLION Catholics insofar as the interplay between government and religion is a force to be reckoned with and the Vatican's status as a diplomatic powerhouse is hardly "unwarranted."

You might not LIKE the fact that there are a billion Catholics on the planet, or that they can form significant voting blocs around political issues that affect their spiritual lives, but that's just sticking your diplomatic head up your ass, and most nations are not quite that stupid.

Most Catholics in the "First World" don't dance to the Pope's tune. It's probably getting that way in other countries as well, just give it time.

[Seth]

So there shouldn't be any problem if everyone just stopped talking to the Vatican and pretended they didn't exist

If only I could live to see the day when it was comprehensively treated with the level of respect and consideration it really deserves.

And what "level of respect" is that? And doesn't that disrespect the opinions of a billion people, who have a right to have their interests served and protected?

You all seem to forget that the Catholic church is not just the Vatican or the Pope, it's a billion people spread out all over the world who have a common interest and who have rights.

[Seth]

Dangerous..
a) the Papal States maybe the oldest actual political entity on the European scene, and even though most of their possessions have been stripped from them, the implications of abolishing their sovereign state status entirely, especially on the part of 'enlightened' Western democracies would be incalculable, and would probably morally vindicate all sorts of evil, since we find that kind of things acceptable.
b) Whether you like it or not, the Vatican is a major diplomatic hub, equal to Paris, London, DC, NYNY or Moscow... cut yourself from it at your own peril.

It is probably the single biggest intelligence operation on the planet. A representative in nearly every parish on the planet. This an their claim to be in charge of hundreds of millions gives them an unwarranted position in the diplomatic world.

Oh, I don't know, the fact that they represent a BILLION Catholics insofar as the interplay between government and religion is a force to be reckoned with and the Vatican's status as a diplomatic powerhouse is hardly "unwarranted."

You might not LIKE the fact that there are a billion Catholics on the planet, or that they can form significant voting blocs around political issues that affect their spiritual lives, but that's just sticking your diplomatic head up your ass, and most nations are not quite that stupid.

Most Catholics in the "First World" don't dance to the Pope's tune. It's probably getting that way in other countries as well, just give it time.

Really? Where do you get that remarkable factoid from?

And isn't that between them and the Pope?

[klr]

Dangerous..
a) the Papal States maybe the oldest actual political entity on the European scene, and even though most of their possessions have been stripped from them, the implications of abolishing their sovereign state status entirely, especially on the part of 'enlightened' Western democracies would be incalculable, and would probably morally vindicate all sorts of evil, since we find that kind of things acceptable.
b) Whether you like it or not, the Vatican is a major diplomatic hub, equal to Paris, London, DC, NYNY or Moscow... cut yourself from it at your own peril.

It is probably the single biggest intelligence operation on the planet. A representative in nearly every parish on the planet. This an their claim to be in charge of hundreds of millions gives them an unwarranted position in the diplomatic world.

Oh, I don't know, the fact that they represent a BILLION Catholics insofar as the interplay between government and religion is a force to be reckoned with and the Vatican's status as a diplomatic powerhouse is hardly "unwarranted."

You might not LIKE the fact that there are a billion Catholics on the planet, or that they can form significant voting blocs around political issues that affect their spiritual lives, but that's just sticking your diplomatic head up your ass, and most nations are not quite that stupid.

Most Catholics in the "First World" don't dance to the Pope's tune. It's probably getting that way in other countries as well, just give it time.

Really? Where do you get that remarkable factoid from?

And isn't that between them and the Pope?

It's not a factoid. The likes of Ireland, Spain and Italy are nominally Catholic through-and-through to judge by census returns, and the claims of the RC church itself. But by any meaningful metric you choose to examine: Regular church attendance (or lack thereof), take-up of divorce, use of contraception ... forget it. Actions speak volumes: They obviously don't give a shit what the Pope says.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...doesn't that disrespect the opinions of a billion people...

meh

[Seth]

It's not a factoid. The likes of Ireland, Spain and Italy are nominally Catholic through-and-through to judge by census returns, and the claims of the RC church itself. But by any meaningful metric you choose to examine: Regular church attendance (or lack thereof), take-up of divorce, use of contraception ... forget it. Actions speak volumes: They obviously don't give a shit what the Pope says.

And still, there's a billion of 'em who claim membership. A potent force no matter how you cut it, particularly if they all get pissed off about the same thing. Nations are wise to acknowledge this and keep open diplomatic relations with the Vatican.

[Geoff]

Dangerous..
a) the Papal States maybe the oldest actual political entity on the European scene, and even though most of their possessions have been stripped from them, the implications of abolishing their sovereign state status entirely, especially on the part of 'enlightened' Western democracies would be incalculable, and would probably morally vindicate all sorts of evil, since we find that kind of things acceptable.

The Papal states are the ones morally vindicating all sorts of evil.

Such as?

Start with the Cloyne report and the Vatican's reactions to it...

[Cormac]

Dangerous..
a) the Papal States maybe the oldest actual political entity on the European scene, and even though most of their possessions have been stripped from them, the implications of abolishing their sovereign state status entirely, especially on the part of 'enlightened' Western democracies would be incalculable, and would probably morally vindicate all sorts of evil, since we find that kind of things acceptable.
b) Whether you like it or not, the Vatican is a major diplomatic hub, equal to Paris, London, DC, NYNY or Moscow... cut yourself from it at your own peril.

It is probably the single biggest intelligence operation on the planet. A representative in nearly every parish on the planet. This an their claim to be in charge of hundreds of millions gives them an unwarranted position in the diplomatic world.

Oh, I don't know, the fact that they represent a BILLION Catholics insofar as the interplay between government and religion is a force to be reckoned with and the Vatican's status as a diplomatic powerhouse is hardly "unwarranted."

You might not LIKE the fact that there are a billion Catholics on the planet, or that they can form significant voting blocs around political issues that affect their spiritual lives, but that's just sticking your diplomatic head up your ass, and most nations are not quite that stupid.

That claim to a billion Catholics is not necessarily warranted, being based on all those baptised, and seeing that Ratzinger closed off the exit a couple of years ago. The church will no longer acknowledge that people gave renounced baptism and formally left the church.

The Vatican does not command a disciplined voting bloc, which is one positive result of cognitive dissonance.

The Irish response is appropriate, given the Vatican's interference in the course of justice in Ireland, and its refusal to cooperate with state investigations.

But the reason for the closure is far less juicy. Ireland has maintained two embassies in Rome, and now we'll maintain one, which is appropriate given the state of our financial affairs at home.

[Cormac]

It's not a factoid. The likes of Ireland, Spain and Italy are nominally Catholic through-and-through to judge by census returns, and the claims of the RC church itself. But by any meaningful metric you choose to examine: Regular church attendance (or lack thereof), take-up of divorce, use of contraception ... forget it. Actions speak volumes: They obviously don't give a shit what the Pope says.

And still, there's a billion of 'em who claim membership. A potent force no matter how you cut it, particularly if they all get pissed off about the same thing. Nations are wise to acknowledge this and keep open diplomatic relations with the Vatican.

Most Catholics couldn't give a toss about what the pope says. Certainly most Irish Catholics don't.

And that billion Catholics statistic is wildly inflated, based as it is on baptism records and census stats which include "cultural catholics" amongst their number.

And in any case, most of those Catholics have excommunicated themselves, according to Ratzinger himself.

[JimC]

Some of my best friends are catholics...

Quite true!

But it's still all woo...