Benevolent Sexism

[Coito ergo sum]

I always hold the door open if I get there first.

Hold it open after passing through first yourself? Or, hold it open while allowing them to pass through first?

Both, depending.
It is all in the timing and who is coming in after me and which way the door opens.

As for "who is coming in after me" - does their sex matter? To me it does - I won't stand their holding the door for a guy so he can walk through first. If a woman were to do that for me, I'd feel a bit uncomfortable about it, and I would grab the door and say "no no - you go ahead, ladies first."

I've never seen a woman hold a door for a guy so that the guy can walk through first. That just seems weird.

In the above statement where I use the term "who" I mean age, presence of infirmities, presence of encumberment; that kind of thing.

For instance, I hold all doors for my mother--and anyone like her--and stand well out of the way because she uses a walker or a cane. Whether said individual possesses a penis or a vagina has no relevance.

Weird or not, if I get there first and even if some buff young dude is right behind me, I hold the door for him.
Timing and how the door opens determines if I stand aside or hand it off.

well, I should say that I will, of course, hold the door for the elderly and the infirm of whatever sex, or a small diminutive child.

Now, a buff young dude is a step or two behind you - do you open the door, step to the side, hold it open and let the grown, healthy man pass through ahead of you? Or, do you step through, and hang onto the door a sec so it doesn't close back on him? There's a huge difference in this discussion, so I'm just trying to clarify the ambiguity in what is meant by "hold the door." I don't let door close back on anyone coming up behind me, unless they are too far away. But, it's the deferring to the other person entering first where I seem to have a benevolent sexism.

[Gallstones]

OK.

[Coito ergo sum]

Anecdotal.

Is that a criticism? If so, it applies equally to everything you have said.

Shocked and amazed you say? I really don't make that big of a deal out of it.

Surprised. It's not a big deal - it's a discussion about the topic.

I really am very much surprised, to the point of being shocked, that you and mai really stand there holding doors for guys all the time, letting them pass through ahead of you, in the vein of "ladies first," only "gentlemen first." But, if you say so, I'm not doubting your sincerity. I merely expressed my surprise and amazement that that would be the case, as I have never seen it happen.

I will, from now on, hold the door and stand aside just to be contradictory. I will even say "Please, after you".

Is that to say that you haven't typically done that in the past, and you'll now be changing your basic practice?

[maiforpeace]

I always hold the door open if I get there first.

Hold it open after passing through first yourself? Or, hold it open while allowing them to pass through first?

Both, depending.
It is all in the timing and who is coming in after me and which way the door opens.

I'm with you Gallstones.

What I find annoying is that when I am a gentlewoman and hold the door open, letting the other person pass first, (I don't agree with CES, I think it's more common for women to do it than he thinks)

I'm in my 40's and I've never seen it. Qualification: I have seen women hold the door AFTER passing through, so as not to let it close on someone or in their face. But, what I'm saying I don't ever see is a woman get to the door ahead of a guy, then stand there holding the door as if to say "gentlemen, first," instead of "ladies first." I am honestly shocked and amazed that anyone is suggesting this is at all anything close to common.

[
some men will go out of their way to change positions so they can be the ones to open the door first, even though they could use my help with the door more than I need theirs.

Absolutely, I agree with that. Some of us will. That's how ingrained the culture is. We can be holding some heavy stuff. We still hold open the door for a woman, even if we have to do it with our elbow or foot.

But why deprive me of the joy of helping someone else out if I want to? I don't know about others, but I am polite and civilized because it makes me feel good.

Although I must say the elderly men at the retirement community I volunteer at are quite liberated - they always accept my help. I guess that's when it stops being a chivalry thing and starts being an old age thing.

Also, these are the few men who are living as long as the women so they are used to getting the extra feminine attention.

[Coito ergo sum]

But why deprive me of the joy of helping someone else out if I want to?

Well, speaking as a guy afflicted by this ingrained practice, I can tell you it is not any intent to deprive you of anything. It's an ingrained urge to get the door, it's an ingrained knee-jerk reflex that "ladies first." If the boat is sinking - it's not just the children who get to be saved ahead of me, it's the women too. Women and children first. Men can drown.

So, I can have a 50 pound box in my hand, and if you open the door, my reaction is going to be to use the box to prop the door open, stick my foot against and say, "I'm o.k. - go on in," and let you pass. I think that based on what you're telling me, that you wouldn't find that occurrence unique.

I don't know about others, but I am polite and civilized because it makes me feel good.

I'm sure you are, and so are we men. I do all these things to be polite and it feels good, but discriminate against men on the issue because ingrained in our culture is the notion that men get the door, and women go first. Women get the life boat, and men drown. At a nice restaurant, the women order first. The bill is always presented to the man. Default driver is usually the man.

Although I must say the elderly men at the retirement community I volunteer at are quite liberated - they always accept my help. I guess that's when it stops being a chivalry thing and starts being an old age thing.

Well, sure. I bet they think there's a chance they can get in your pants too. Mens' mental, sexual age never gets past 13.

[Ronja]

It's extremely rare, indeed, to have a woman hold the door open, and wait for men to proceed through, and it is almost as rare to have a man open the door and wait for another man to proceed through. While the idea of doing that for women doesn't bother me - if the suggestion being made is that holding doors is a matter done out of civility to everyone equally, then that is certainly not the general practice. I think if folks here are holding doors open for men as a matter of general practice, then they would be among a very tiny minority of folks who do so.

Neither of these is true (in the UK anyway) in my experience. Civility is the key, not condescension.

I would say the same for Finland, at least the southern metropolitan area, where I've lived since 1969. People open doors to each other when it is needed (someone - man or woman - has their hands full, is old, is permanently or temporarily disabled), when it is convenient (they are entering at the same time) or when they are in a kind mood, it seems to me. Which makes it simple routine most of the time, in my experience - people don't appear to think about it that much really.

On a more anecdotal note: I often end up working on study projects with men who are not much older than half my age (having been working with computers since the mid-eighties tends to do that to you). In that context I find that , and doing the following very early in the project breaks the ice nicely: I open some door in a "hey let's get cracking with this thing" manner and shoo the team underway with a smile, while holding the door open for the first ones and then joining the throng, trusting someone else to catch the door. Admittedly, also crawling under tables plugging in cables, not to mention scaring the shit out of the uni IT support guys by complaining about every single thing that does not work in a computer classroom politely, persistently and in the correct terminology, also works wonders.

My analysis of this is that breaking the expectations of how a skirt-wearing middle-aged woman is supposed to behave has usually helped people relax - and those few who instead tense up or act confused thus identify themselves as potential trouble, and will likely need some extra psycho-social attention during the project. Usually such "special attention" does not need to be anything overt or confrontational - young guys from East Europe and the Mediterranean have relaxed visibly from something as simple as hearing me talking about or on the phone with my kids and seeing in practice that evening work is not OK for me due to family considerations. So my rule of thumb nowadays is that young male Finns need to know that I can be like them, and young male foreigners (from outside the Nordic region) need to know that I can be like Mom. Seems to work most of the time.

[Ronja]

So, I can have a 50 pound box in my hand, and if you open the door, my reaction is going to be to use the box to prop the door open, stick my foot against and say, "I'm o.k. - go on in," and let you pass.

At my campus men and women, young and old, would stare at you as if you had arrived from the stars, if you did that. Very alien, that kind of behavior, unless there is an additional reason, like if you are working in a pair or group and waiting for the rest of your group to get through the door with their boxes, too.

How is it rational/practical/fair that the person with the heavy load should help the person with no load?

But I know Finns have been accused of overdoing pragmatism in issues like this. Our culture, and especially the engineering subculture, seems to overfocus on "does it work, objectively" and underfocus on "how does it make us feel, subjectively."

[Coito ergo sum]

So, I can have a 50 pound box in my hand, and if you open the door, my reaction is going to be to use the box to prop the door open, stick my foot against and say, "I'm o.k. - go on in," and let you pass.

At my campus men and women, young and old, would stare at you as if you had arrived from the stars, if you did that. Very alien, that kind of behavior, unless there is an additional reason, like if you are working in a pair or group and waiting for the rest of your group to get through the door with their boxes, too.

I can certainly see it being more common for women to hold doors for men carrying heavy boxes and such. I have no idea what Finnish culture is like on the topic, so I have to defer to you, but I would find it really weird, personally, if women were constantly opening doors and letting me through ahead of them. I see it so rarely here in the US, that I would be really surprised by it.

How is it rational/practical/fair that the person with the heavy load should help the person with no load?

No rational sense at all, and none of the benevolent sexism is fair. But, there is no fairness in letting women hit from the "ladies tees" in golf, and I see no rational basis for women professional tennis players play 2 fewer sets than men play. I don't see why it should be "women first" when it comes to saving lives on a sinking ship, but it pretty much still is. And, if a mugger comes at a couple, it is generally a sign of manliness for the man to risk injury to save the woman from same, but it would not be seemly for the woman to do the same for him. Lots of things aren't rational or fair. It's not rational or fair for me always open up doors for a woman and stand their holding it as she walks through ahead of me. It's not fair that fancy restaurants take women's orders first, and always bring the bill to the man. But, that's the way it is.

But I know Finns have been accused of overdoing pragmatism in issues like this. Our culture, and especially the engineering subculture, seems to overfocus on "does it work, objectively" and underfocus on "how does it make us feel, subjectively."

I've always wanted to go to Finland. I've been to Norway, Sweden and Denmark, and I'd like to hit Finland and Iceland both one day.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's extremely rare, indeed, to have a woman hold the door open, and wait for men to proceed through, and it is almost as rare to have a man open the door and wait for another man to proceed through. While the idea of doing that for women doesn't bother me - if the suggestion being made is that holding doors is a matter done out of civility to everyone equally, then that is certainly not the general practice. I think if folks here are holding doors open for men as a matter of general practice, then they would be among a very tiny minority of folks who do so.

Neither of these is true (in the UK anyway) in my experience. Civility is the key, not condescension.

I would say the same for Finland, at least the southern metropolitan area, where I've lived since 1969. People open doors to each other when it is needed (someone - man or woman - has their hands full, is old, is permanently or temporarily disabled), when it is convenient (they are entering at the same time) or when they are in a kind mood, it seems to me. Which makes it simple routine most of the time, in my experience - people don't appear to think about it that much really.

So, there is no custom where men get to a door and hold it open, allowing their wife/girlfriend to enter first? Or, to allow another woman to enter first?

Holding the door is one thing. I think most folks hang onto to the door a bit upon entering, if someone is coming up behind them, to avoid having it slam on them. And, if someone is carrying a heavy load, or is an old person or infirm, clearly people help, and women are no less helpful. But, in terms of opening the door and deferring to someone else to enter first - "ladies first" as the saying went - do Finnish women commonly get to a door, stand there holding it before entering, so as to allow a grown, fit, adult male to pass through the doorway first?

In the US it is still a custom that men open doors for women, letting them pass through first, and men, if they are being a gentleman, open car doors for their dates/wives/girlfriends. Gallstones and Maiforpeace have said that they do this kind of thing for men all the time, and that I am wrong in thinking it is rare for women to open doors for men, letting them pass through first. I disagree with them, and I suppose we're at an impasse there, because our experiences apparently differ. What is Finland like in that respect? Has the custom of men opening doors for women and holding the door to let them through first ever been a custom in finland, and if so, when did it sort of die out? Or, did it just become equal, where women now routinely open doors and hold them for men, letting the men walk through first?

[maiforpeace]

It's extremely rare, indeed, to have a woman hold the door open, and wait for men to proceed through, and it is almost as rare to have a man open the door and wait for another man to proceed through. While the idea of doing that for women doesn't bother me - if the suggestion being made is that holding doors is a matter done out of civility to everyone equally, then that is certainly not the general practice. I think if folks here are holding doors open for men as a matter of general practice, then they would be among a very tiny minority of folks who do so.

Neither of these is true (in the UK anyway) in my experience. Civility is the key, not condescension.

I would say the same for Finland, at least the southern metropolitan area, where I've lived since 1969. People open doors to each other when it is needed (someone - man or woman - has their hands full, is old, is permanently or temporarily disabled), when it is convenient (they are entering at the same time) or when they are in a kind mood, it seems to me. Which makes it simple routine most of the time, in my experience - people don't appear to think about it that much really.

So, there is no custom where men get to a door and hold it open, allowing their wife/girlfriend to enter first? Or, to allow another woman to enter first?

Holding the door is one thing. I think most folks hang onto to the door a bit upon entering, if someone is coming up behind them, to avoid having it slam on them. And, if someone is carrying a heavy load, or is an old person or infirm, clearly people help, and women are no less helpful. But, in terms of opening the door and deferring to someone else to enter first - "ladies first" as the saying went - do Finnish women commonly get to a door, stand there holding it before entering, so as to allow a grown, fit, adult male to pass through the doorway first?

In the US it is still a custom that men open doors for women, letting them pass through first, and men, if they are being a gentleman, open car doors for their dates/wives/girlfriends. Gallstones and Maiforpeace have said that they do this kind of thing for men all the time, and that I am wrong in thinking it is rare for women to open doors for men, letting them pass through first. I disagree with them, and I suppose we're at an impasse there, because our experiences apparently differ. What is Finland like in that respect? Has the custom of men opening doors for women and holding the door to let them through first ever been a custom in finland, and if so, when did it sort of die out? Or, did it just become equal, where women now routinely open doors and hold them for men, letting the men walk through first?

I don't know about Finland, but in France everyone is rude, and nobody holds the doors for anyone anymore like they do in the US. I am happy to say we are much more obliging and polite with strangers here in the US as compared to France.

[Ronja]

It's extremely rare, indeed, to have a woman hold the door open, and wait for men to proceed through, and it is almost as rare to have a man open the door and wait for another man to proceed through. While the idea of doing that for women doesn't bother me - if the suggestion being made is that holding doors is a matter done out of civility to everyone equally, then that is certainly not the general practice. I think if folks here are holding doors open for men as a matter of general practice, then they would be among a very tiny minority of folks who do so.

Neither of these is true (in the UK anyway) in my experience. Civility is the key, not condescension.

I would say the same for Finland, at least the southern metropolitan area, where I've lived since 1969. People open doors to each other when it is needed (someone - man or woman - has their hands full, is old, is permanently or temporarily disabled), when it is convenient (they are entering at the same time) or when they are in a kind mood, it seems to me. Which makes it simple routine most of the time, in my experience - people don't appear to think about it that much really.

So, there is no custom where men get to a door and hold it open, allowing their wife/girlfriend to enter first? Or, to allow another woman to enter first?

If it is a date, or some other special occasion (e.g. going to the theater, to the movies or to a restaurant), or if they are older or have traditional values, then I would say yes, it is quite likely that the man will open the door. Also, if it is a group activity, and especially if it is business related (more formal), then the person who invited the group and/or acts as the host or hostess has to open the door and hold it for everyone else and enter last, otherwise they will be seen as quite rude (this goes for both women and men, if there are no Non-Nordic people nor people known to be very conservative in the group).

Holding the door is one thing. I think most folks hang onto to the door a bit upon entering, if someone is coming up behind them, to avoid having it slam on them. And, if someone is carrying a heavy load, or is an old person or infirm, clearly people help, and women are no less helpful. But, in terms of opening the door and deferring to someone else to enter first - "ladies first" as the saying went - do Finnish women commonly get to a door, stand there holding it before entering, so as to allow a grown, fit, adult male to pass through the doorway first?

When the people arriving at the door are physically mostly equal (the old/infirm/big boss angles are out of the picture) then it's not a gender thing, it's more like how many steps behind you the other person - woman or man - is, i.e. what is practical and easy to do (as I said, we tend to somewhat overdo pragmatism here). If you are arriving together with someone you know, whichever reaches the door handle first should open and hold the door for the other(s). I.e., if you are a part of a group, it is seen as negatively selfish not to hold the door for your own people, regardless of gender or number. If the group is large and/or split into smaller groups, it's OK to enter after the first batch has passed you, as long as you hold the door behind you until someone else has caught it - and they will then hold the door for their own group, coming in as last of that batch.

If the person coming behind you is a complete stranger, and just one or two steps behind you, it is more polite/acceptable to hold the door and enter after them, but if they are three or four steps behind, entering first and then holding the door for them to catch is better.

I guess our winter temperatures may have a role in encouraging social conventions that get the maximum number of people through a door in a minimum of time. At any rate, my observations suggest that anything that noticeably slows down effective movement is likely to irritate a typical (metropolitan area) Finn, both when driving, riding the bus/metro/bicycle or walking.

In the US it is still a custom that men open doors for women, letting them pass through first, and men, if they are being a gentleman, open car doors for their dates/wives/girlfriends. Gallstones and Maiforpeace have said that they do this kind of thing for men all the time, and that I am wrong in thinking it is rare for women to open doors for men, letting them pass through first. I disagree with them, and I suppose we're at an impasse there, because our experiences apparently differ. What is Finland like in that respect? Has the custom of men opening doors for women and holding the door to let them through first ever been a custom in finland, and if so, when did it sort of die out? Or, did it just become equal, where women now routinely open doors and hold them for men, letting the men walk through first?

Historically, considerations like that have been the custom of royalty / nobility / the ruling class, who have been able to afford fussing about "good manners." And until about the year 1900, they have been a very small minority. Everyone else has been more concerned about whether a potential wife or husband is a hard-working, sober (enough) and healthy person. When the general population started to form a middle class, ideas of gender-based politeness norms did spread, but the effects of the three wars 1918 and 1939-44 were rather formidable, in the sense that survival and getting things done became a national necessity. There really was not that much time or energy to put into the finer details. After the industry had gotten onto their feet in the late fifties, gender-based politeness was, AFAIK, at its all time high, but fairly soon the hippies etc. appeared and made all that at least a bit suspect. And the "modern" gender equality discussion, which started in earnest IIRC in the early or mid-eighties really started to push such notions into the "quaint" category.

BTW, have you noted that Gallstones and Mai are speaking from a Montana and California perspective, respectively, and you from a Florida perspective (if my memory serves)? AFAIK, these states differ quite a bit when it comes to gender-related expectations on behavior - maybe about as much as Finland/Sweden/Norway differ from, say, Russia, which again differs from Spain/Italy/Greece? I could easily imagine that e.g. Montana could have a climate pressure towards not dawdling in doorways (I would expect the same of, say, Michigan, Ontario and Alaska, and similar places). And California is pretty much the US cultural equivalent to Sweden or the Netherlands gender-wise, isn't it?

[klr]

...
I don't know about Finland, but in France everyone is rude, and nobody holds the doors for anyone anymore like they do in the US. I am happy to say we are much more obliging and polite with strangers here in the US as compared to France.

The French rude? Perish the thought.

...
On a more anecdotal note: I often end up working on study projects with men who are not much older than half my age (having been working with computers since the mid-eighties tends to do that to you). In that context I find that , and doing the following very early in the project breaks the ice nicely: I open some door in a "hey let's get cracking with this thing" manner and shoo the team underway with a smile, while holding the door open for the first ones and then joining the throng, trusting someone else to catch the door. Admittedly, also crawling under tables plugging in cables, not to mention scaring the shit out of the uni IT support guys by complaining about every single thing that does not work in a computer classroom politely, persistently and in the correct terminology, also works wonders.

My analysis of this is that breaking the expectations of how a skirt-wearing middle-aged woman is supposed to behave has usually helped people relax - and those few who instead tense up or act confused thus identify themselves as potential trouble, and will likely need some extra psycho-social attention during the project. Usually such "special attention" does not need to be anything overt or confrontational - young guys from East Europe and the Mediterranean have relaxed visibly from something as simple as hearing me talking about or on the phone with my kids and seeing in practice that evening work is not OK for me due to family considerations. So my rule of thumb nowadays is that young male Finns need to know that I can be like them, and young male foreigners (from outside the Nordic region) need to know that I can be like Mom. Seems to work most of the time.

I work in an open plan office area where some of others are busy with networking equipment, server components and other hardware. I do not offer to assist any of the women who are carrying boxes or anything else around. It's their job, not mine - I'm an analyst programmer. This is one situation where offering to help (except maybe in the most extreme cases) would probably be construed as sexist, and rightly so IMHO.

[Coito ergo sum]

[

BTW, have you noted that Gallstones and Mai are speaking from a Montana and California perspective, respectively, and you from a Florida perspective (if my memory serves)? AFAIK, these states differ quite a bit when it comes to gender-related expectations on behavior - maybe about as much as Finland/Sweden/Norway differ from, say, Russia, which again differs from Spain/Italy/Greece? I could easily imagine that e.g. Montana could have a climate pressure towards not dawdling in doorways (I would expect the same of, say, Michigan, Ontario and Alaska, and similar places). And California is pretty much the US cultural equivalent to Sweden or the Netherlands gender-wise, isn't it?

I have never been to Montana, but I have been to California. I never noticed any sort of egalitarianism regarding door opening.

I've lived in three different states for long periods of my life, and the custom is always the same.

I think you credit California with too much Hollywood and San Francisco. California is also Sacramento, Yorba Linda, San Bernardino, Beverly Hills, Riverside County....and the like. California is the state that voted in Proposition 8, the Gay Marriage Ban.

[Rum]

I don't know about Finland, but in France everyone is rude, and nobody holds the doors for anyone anymore like they do in the US. I am happy to say we are much more obliging and polite with strangers here in the US as compared to France.

This is probably true in terms of behaviour but as a general rule don't you find that the French are far more polite and formal? I find it a bit refreshing after the cloddish behaviour one sees here in the UK.

[Svartalf]

Me? Formal?
Where would you ever have gotten such an impression?