US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It Out

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by mistermack » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:22 pm

Coito, You like to think of it as a UK / US thing. My contempt for gun lovers is international. including the UK.

In fact I would point out that UK gun lovers are more suspect than US ones, because they've had less conditioning to regard gun ownership as normal.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:25 pm

mistermack wrote:Coito, You like to think of it as a UK / US thing. My contempt for gun lovers is international. including the UK.

In fact I would point out that UK gun lovers are more suspect than US ones, because they've had less conditioning to regard gun ownership as normal.

And it's impossible that you've been "conditioned" to irrationally fear and despise guns and anyone who owns them, right? :bored:

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by mistermack » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:35 pm

Wumbologist wrote: Even IF this hypothetical American decided to carry a gun for the illogical reasons you've laid out, considering that he is statistically more likely to be a law-abiding and safe citizen than pretty much any other sample of the population that you'll find, what's the harm?
The harm is that the least intelligent portion of the population end up walking round with the guns, with a ludicrous fantasy inside their heads.

The other day, I went to the wrong car and tried to get into it. It was the same colour as mine, but it wasn't even the same make. My mind was elsewhere.
It gives me the creeps that some dumb fucker could have been watching me, with a gun in his hand, and a stupid gunfighter delusion in his head.

In a US court, he would probably get off, if he shot you.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm

Wumbologist wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: It's not a national fantasy. And, everything you said smacks of talking points that you've been fed. It sounds like somebody who hasn't set foot in the United States is talking, and trying to come up with a pop-psychology theory on what Americans think about guns, by starting with an erroneous assumption about what Americans do, watch and think, and then proceeding from that to invent a bullshit explanation for something they know nothing about.
Well I have, and I've met the more extreme examples of fantasists, and nobody thought that they were mad.
That's the difference, what you think of as "normal".

Let's follow the illogic of your incredibly stupid train of though about gunfighter fantasies for a moment.

Let's say that your hypothetical American who has watched a bunch of Westerns really does believe the world is full of baddies. He decides, from this illogical belief, that he should get a gun and carry it to protect himself. He gets a license to carry, and a firearm, and becomes a member of a portion of society that, as Seth pointed out a few pages ago, is exceptionally law abiding by nature. Even IF this hypothetical American decided to carry a gun for the illogical reasons you've laid out, considering that he is statistically more likely to be a law-abiding and safe citizen than pretty much any other sample of the population that you'll find, what's the harm?
It all boils down this: Guns are bad, m'kay? Image

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Svartalf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:42 pm

guns ain't bad. Morons and baddies using them are.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:43 pm

mistermack wrote: The harm is that the least intelligent portion of the population end up walking round with the guns, with a ludicrous fantasy inside their heads.
Before we continue, let's remind ourselves that this is based on your unproven and completely unsubstantiated claims about American gun owners and their "gunfighter fantasies".

Having said that, even if American gun owners do have that fantasy in their head, concealed carry holders are STILL far more law-abiding than the rest of the population. Despite the handicaps that you have endowed upon these imaginary people, despite their being the least intelligent part of the population, and despite having a fantasy in their heads, they are far more law-abiding than any random sample of people you could pull off the streets. Once again: Where is the actual harm?
The other day, I went to the wrong car and tried to get into it. It was the same colour as mine, but it wasn't even the same make. My mind was elsewhere.
It gives me the creeps that some dumb fucker could have been watching me, with a gun in his hand, and a stupid gunfighter delusion in his head.
It gives you the creeps to pretend that imaginary fantasy scenario that doesn't actually play out in reality could have played out, and yet you're worried about other people's supposed fantasies? I have yet to meet a single person who carries concealed, who would think that the scenario you described was cause to pull a gun. Your imagination does NOT count as a valid argument, please try again.
In a US court, he would probably get off, if he shot you.
Nope. Wrong again sonny, but do keep trying. It's at least entertaining to keep watching you try so hard and fail so miserably to make even a single logical, rational argument with a shred of reality behind it.

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:45 pm

mistermack wrote:Coito, You like to think of it as a UK / US thing. My contempt for gun lovers is international. including the UK.
But you specifically accuse AMERICANS of being the brainwashed, propagandized lunatics. It's very telling that you don't call British people brainwashed, propagandized lunatics. You make it a US/UK thing. I merely won't let it go unanswered.
mistermack wrote:
In fact I would point out that UK gun lovers are more suspect than US ones, because they've had less conditioning to regard gun ownership as normal.
Your assertions that Americans are "conditioned" to "regard gun ownership as normal" is just plain stupid. Gun ownership is gun ownership. If you grow up in a rural area, of course it's normal. People hunt and fish routinely, and on large properties there is vermin that is handled with guns from time to time. It is normal because in the US we have millions of acres of land on which millions of deer, bear, turkey, and other game animals roam free. We're not "full up" like you folks are in the UK.

It is not normal to see guns around from day to day in most suburban and urban areas in the US. I have lived in a midwestern state which was a very pro-gun state and pro-hunting state. Yet, in living there for 15 years, I think I saw a person with a gun out and about, maybe, twice (not including police officers and soldiers, who routine have weapons). I grew up in a household that never had a gun, and most of my friends' families either did not have guns, or did not talk about them much. I have never owned a gun. Most people I know have never owned a gun, and the statistics show that my experience is the majority experience in the US.

Not pissing one's pants over guns is not the same as being brainwashed.

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Seth » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:48 pm

mistermack wrote:Does anyone know how the right to bear arms is protected re knives?

Wouldn't it be ludicrous, if carrying guns was freer than carrying knives?

Can you get permits to carry concealed knives, switchblades, or openly carry large bladed knives?
In many states, it's a "concealed WEAPON permit" like in Kentucky. It used to be that way in Colorado, and I carried both a knife and a handgun in a shoulder rig, but when they passed the new "shall issue" law, they restricted it to "concealed HANDGUN permit" which made it illegal to carry a concealed knife (with blade over 3.5 inches long) or (for example) a submachine gun (which is explicitly excluded).

But, you can openly carry a knife "for hunting, fishing or sports" purposes, which leaves the field pretty wide open so long as you can plausibly argue you're engaged in any of the above.

And yes, it's pretty ludicrous, and I told the legislature that at the time. A knife is another tool in the continuum of force which should be available to citizens for self-defense. I'm hoping for an amendment one of these days.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:50 pm

mistermack wrote:
Wumbologist wrote: Even IF this hypothetical American decided to carry a gun for the illogical reasons you've laid out, considering that he is statistically more likely to be a law-abiding and safe citizen than pretty much any other sample of the population that you'll find, what's the harm?
The harm is that the least intelligent portion of the population end up walking round with the guns, with a ludicrous fantasy inside their heads.
That's a measurable quantity. Do you have any evidence that gun owners are less or least intelligent overall? No? Thought so....
mistermack wrote:
The other day, I went to the wrong car and tried to get into it. It was the same colour as mine, but it wasn't even the same make. My mind was elsewhere.
It gives me the creeps that some dumb fucker could have been watching me, with a gun in his hand, and a stupid gunfighter delusion in his head.

In a US court, he would probably get off, if he shot you.
Absolutely not. This is just another example of why this is YOUR gunfighter fantasy about the US, and that you really don't know jack squat about the US at all, and you really should just stop talking now.

Even if you, in the example you gave, were a thief, stealing that car, the owner would be guilty of murder if he shot the thief. Self defense is a defense to murder or manslaughter. Defense of others is a defense to murder or manslaughter. But, defense of a car against being stolen is not a defense. If the facts as stated are assumed to be the proven facts, then the shooter would do a lot of time. That's the reality.

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by mistermack » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:13 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote: That's a measurable quantity.
No it isn't.
Coito ergo sum wrote: . That's the reality.
No it isn't. That's the theory.
The reality is that people lie, police don't much care, and juries get it wrong, or give the benefit of the doubt, as they should.

You've got a very simple black/white view of life. I don't think you should be pronouncing on reality.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:22 pm

mistermack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: That's a measurable quantity.
No it isn't.
Intelligence isn't measurable? Maybe in the UK it isn't. Everywhere else it is.

But, if we assume that you are right, and it isn't, then for you to say that gun owners fall among the least intelligent of society is baseless and stupid. You're just making a foolish, unsubstantiated allegation, and apparently you are fully aware of the fact that you have no basis for it, since you don't think it's possible to measure who is more or less intelligent. That makes you malicious.
mistermack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: . That's the reality.
No it isn't. That's the theory.
The reality is that people lie, police don't much care, and juries get it wrong, or give the benefit of the doubt, as they should.

You've got a very simple black/white view of life. I don't think you should be pronouncing on reality.
Honestly, for you to say that is laughable. You're the one speaking in blacks and whites here. I'm the one offering the nuanced position. Criminy, dude...how can you offer a black and white "guns are bad" - "gun owners are stupid" - position and then you have the gall - the unmitigated nerve - to suggest that someone else is viewing life in simple black/white terms for taking the position that gun owners are more like the rest of the population relative to intelligence, that guns can be bad and can be used as useful tools, and should be reasonably regulated. The fucking arrogance and conceit....must be a Euro thing.

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Seth » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Wumbologist wrote: Even IF this hypothetical American decided to carry a gun for the illogical reasons you've laid out, considering that he is statistically more likely to be a law-abiding and safe citizen than pretty much any other sample of the population that you'll find, what's the harm?
The harm is that the least intelligent portion of the population end up walking round with the guns, with a ludicrous fantasy inside their heads.
That's a measurable quantity. Do you have any evidence that gun owners are less or least intelligent overall? No? Thought so....
Exactly. mistermack's calumny is merely an ignorant bit of hoplophobe hyperbole with absolutely no evidence to back it up.
mistermack wrote:
The other day, I went to the wrong car and tried to get into it. It was the same colour as mine, but it wasn't even the same make. My mind was elsewhere.
It gives me the creeps that some dumb fucker could have been watching me, with a gun in his hand, and a stupid gunfighter delusion in his head.

In a US court, he would probably get off, if he shot you.
Absolutely not. This is just another example of why this is YOUR gunfighter fantasy about the US, and that you really don't know jack squat about the US at all, and you really should just stop talking now.

Even if you, in the example you gave, were a thief, stealing that car, the owner would be guilty of murder if he shot the thief. Self defense is a defense to murder or manslaughter. Defense of others is a defense to murder or manslaughter. But, defense of a car against being stolen is not a defense. If the facts as stated are assumed to be the proven facts, then the shooter would do a lot of time. That's the reality.[/quote]

Well, technically the authority to use deadly force in self-defense is defense against "death or serious bodily harm," so one need not be facing a LETHAL threat in order to be justified in using deadly force, at least in most states. Some states do still have "retreat to the wall" statutes (though they are coming down with increasing frequency) that require a person to do everything possible to escape a potentially deadly situation before using deadly force.

It's called "SELF-defense" for a reason. It's about defense of the person, not property...except in Texas where the use of deadly physical force may be used to protect property in some circumstances, but that doesn't include stealing a car so far as I know, but I'd have to check. Last I heard, it was authorized in cases of residential burglary.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by mistermack » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:43 pm

You lot can bang on all you like about the theory.
What happens in practise is that people get off.
They argue that they THOUGHT that their life was in danger. Or just tell blatant lies. And get off.
Student shot on householder's DRIVE
It's hard to give your side of the story, when you're in a drawer in the mortuary.
And even if the person DID get convicted of something, it's usually a token sentence, and no comfort at all to the dead party.

Far more sensible to take the guns off the loonies in the first place.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:57 pm

mistermack wrote:You lot can bang on all you like about the theory.
What happens in practise is that people get off.
And, that's from your ZERO experience with the US justice system?

Can you even cite one example of a guy shooting someone to death who was trying to take their vehicle while it was empty in a parking lot, and then being acquitted? I am sure you can't. That is the reality. The rest is your fantasy.
mistermack wrote: They argue that they THOUGHT that their life was in danger. Or just tell blatant lies. And get off.
Who?
mistermack wrote: Student shot on householder's DRIVE
It's hard to give your side of the story, when you're in a drawer in the mortuary.
And even if the person DID get convicted of something, it's usually a token sentence, and no comfort at all to the dead party.
You cite one, single, extreme case, which involved a home and not a car. Statutes do not allow defense of a car in that way, and there would be no defense to the shooting.

Moreover, you don't know what is "usual" and you know it. Frankly, if you had any experience with the American justice system you would know that far from being "lenient" prosecutors are prone to over-charge cases and extort plea bargains by threatening defendants with long prison sentences, and prison sentences in the US are pretty harsh.

Where do you get your ideas about the American justice system? Repeats of 1970's cop dramas?
mistermack wrote:
Far more sensible to take the guns off the loonies in the first place.
Taking guns off loonies is fine.

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It

Post by Gallstones » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:02 pm

mistermack wrote:You lot can bang on all you like about the theory.
What happens in practise is that people get off.
They argue that they THOUGHT that their life was in danger. Or just tell blatant lies. And get off.
Student shot on householder's DRIVE
It's hard to give your side of the story, when you're in a drawer in the mortuary.
And even if the person DID get convicted of something, it's usually a token sentence, and no comfort at all to the dead party.

Far more sensible to take the guns off the loonies in the first place.
I know someone who is rock solid "normal" who did find himself in a real--not imaginary or theoretical--a real situation of having to defend himself or die. He was fortunate enough to be able to defend himself and not be made dead. This individual is not likely to misapprehend what was happening in that moment.

Also, I'm pretty sure the competence of forensic specialists makes it unlikely one can just "tell blatant lies and get off".

You know something else? I doubt even you, mistermack, would misapprehend what was happening in such a moment. The difference being you would be screwed (AKA dead)--for real.
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