No, that's not "What Europeans do". - And even if someone did attempt to make a statistical argument based on homicide rates it is not comparable to simply select the lowest crime states - rather, it would be necessary to attempt to find and compare the states and countries that were the most similar in all other relevant ways i.e. social health, wealth distribution, other crime rates, education standards etc.Coito ergo sum wrote:What Europeans do is take about 4 or 5 of the western European countries that have the lowest homicide rates and compare them to the entirety of the US, and say "see! Gotcha!" However, if we're only taking a few tiny countries in Europe, then we ought to limit the comparison to a few of our lower crime states, like Vermont and the like, which are comparable to the safest European countries.
US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It Out
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
MrJonno wrote:While only a limited number of people's natural state is violent psychopath (only one obvious example on this forum and I'm not thinking of you) absolutely anyone is capable of losing it after a few drinks, after a hard day at the office, after a stupid row over something trivial, after finding their wife in bed with someone else , or just being fed up with the weather.I'm talking about rational thinkers, not potential secret psychopaths. I'd say we're not on the same page here, but I'm beginning to wonder if you're even reading the same book.
Don't see the world in terms of the good or bad guys just lots of flawed human beings all of which are capable of being violent with any tools that are avaliable so you put a restriction of what is avaliable
So, when people get upset or stressed about something they are prone to killing those near to them so they must not have access to a gun.
If a person is inclined to take their frustrations out on other people using violence, they don't need a gun.
When you get frustrated or depressed or stressed out, do you have fantasies of giving life what for by killing someone? Seriously, do you have to fight the impulse to assault people because you are under stress, angry, disappointed, hurt or brokenhearted?
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
Svartalf wrote:There is no Swiss citizen who is "not in the military".

Professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable. Switzerland's military has 134,886 active personnel and 77,000 reserves. There are about 8,000,000 people in Switzerland. So, no, there are plenty of Swiss citizens who are not in the military. Most are either not fit for duty, retired, not old enough, or women who are not voluntarily serving. Courtesy of Wikipedia.Svartalf wrote: They all have to serve regular periods of militia duty, and to own and keep at home the whole military paraphernalia, including rifle, sidearm and ammo.
A Swiss who DOESN'T have some form of weaponry in his home is a religious fundy, deprived of his citizenship rights (possibly for violent crime or previous bouts of insanity), or elderly and got rid of it once his obligations were served.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
Sorry, but if you're conscripted in the military on a regular basis, and keep military equipment at home, that makes the notion of "civilian" hazy, even if you try to oppose it to full-time armed personnel.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
Sure. I agree. It would not be fair to take a few of the most peaceful western European countries and compare them to the entirety of the US, which is what many Europeans do. Not all, but many. The argument is commonly made on this website and this thread, by Europeans.Psychoserenity wrote:No, that's not "What Europeans do". - And even if someone did attempt to make a statistical argument based on homicide rates it is not comparable to simply select the lowest crime states - rather, it would be necessary to attempt to find and compare the states and countries that were the most similar in all other relevant ways i.e. social health, wealth distribution, other crime rates, education standards etc.Coito ergo sum wrote:What Europeans do is take about 4 or 5 of the western European countries that have the lowest homicide rates and compare them to the entirety of the US, and say "see! Gotcha!" However, if we're only taking a few tiny countries in Europe, then we ought to limit the comparison to a few of our lower crime states, like Vermont and the like, which are comparable to the safest European countries.
And, you are right - homicide rates do have a lot to do with other facts besides gun ownership.

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
While Svartalf's statement that all Swiss are in the military might not be technically correct in the strictest sense, the Swiss concept is that all Swiss citizens are capable and prepared for immediate military service if need me. Their citizenship is essentially their militia.Coito ergo sum wrote: Professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable. Switzerland's military has 134,886 active personnel and 77,000 reserves. There are about 8,000,000 people in Switzerland. So, no, there are plenty of Swiss citizens who are not in the military. Most are either not fit for duty, retired, not old enough, or women who are not voluntarily serving.
Oh boy.Courtesy of Wikipedia.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
Not everyone is conscripted. Males between the age of 18 and 39 are, and women are allowed to serve voluntarily. Half the population, women, can choose to serve, or not. Men who retire from the military are no longer in the military. As I noted, there is an 8 million population, and they have about 200,000 people in their active service and in the reserves. It's easy to find someone in Switzerland who is not in the military.Svartalf wrote:Sorry, but if you're conscripted in the military on a regular basis, and keep military equipment at home, that makes the notion of "civilian" hazy, even if you try to oppose it to full-time armed personnel.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
I thought they wore berets and smoke skinny cigarettes and smell bad. Or is that just the French?Psychoserenity wrote: No, that's not "What Europeans do".

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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
Yeah, but not everyone is capable of serving. Women aren't required to serve, and most don't. About 1/3 of the men are found not fit to serve, and they aren't in the military. So, that's a big chunk of the population there. And, since only about 200,000 people are in the active military or the reserves, it seems painfully obvious that "everyone is in the military" is not even close to true.Wumbologist wrote:While Svartalf's statement that all Swiss are in the military might not be technically correct in the strictest sense, the Swiss concept is that all Swiss citizens are capable and prepared for immediate military service if need me. Their citizenship is essentially their militia.Coito ergo sum wrote: Professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable. Switzerland's military has 134,886 active personnel and 77,000 reserves. There are about 8,000,000 people in Switzerland. So, no, there are plenty of Swiss citizens who are not in the military. Most are either not fit for duty, retired, not old enough, or women who are not voluntarily serving.
And, just saying that conceptually Switzerland considers every citizen a potential soldier doesn't mean that everyone is in the military. They still have millions of gun owners who are neither on active duty or in their reserves. A guy who might join up if need be can't really be said to be in the military.
Oh boy.[/quote]Courtesy of Wikipedia.
They had credible citations. Look up the Swiss Military on wikipedia. It's a good article.
Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
No loaded weapons while transporting weapons ever (you can get a license if you work in security which in Geneva generally means work for the UN)I don't think so. They allow you to have fully auto weapons if you're in the military. If you're not in the military, it has to be at most semiautomatic. You can have them in the house, and you can hunt and shoot target shooting, and use them for personal and home defense. What "restrictions" would freak people out?
No carrying of any weapons loaded or unloaded outside firing range, or to specific event
And quite strange fire a gun anywhere near a city and you could end getting arrested for noise pollution (its a crime in many parts of Switzerland to use your washing machine at night), never mind firearm laws.
There is a lot of milita in the more rural areas going around with automatic weapons (note milita = army the thing that gets mentioned in the US constitution).
Swiss gun laws are liberal compared to the rest of Europe but strict compared to the US. If you said you wanted a gun for self defence if the Swiss didnt arrest you they would put you in a psychriatic ward
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
In answer (again) to why is this picture relevant, firstly, those people WERE nearly all americans,
secondly, many WERE killed with guns, although the majority took poison, thirdly, I explained it was just in reply to the photos that Coito posted.
But FOURTHLY, as americans, the vast majority had the right to buy some pretty formidable weapons if they wanted.
You have to ask yourself, if THIS MANY people can be persuaded to commit suicide, what would happen if they were persuaded to simultaneously start shooting americans?
How many could a group this size kill? ( they're not all in the pictures ).

secondly, many WERE killed with guns, although the majority took poison, thirdly, I explained it was just in reply to the photos that Coito posted.
But FOURTHLY, as americans, the vast majority had the right to buy some pretty formidable weapons if they wanted.
You have to ask yourself, if THIS MANY people can be persuaded to commit suicide, what would happen if they were persuaded to simultaneously start shooting americans?
How many could a group this size kill? ( they're not all in the pictures ).
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
Uh... that's the case here too. Unless you've got a pretty damn good reason to be firing a gun, you'll find yourself in trouble for it if you're in a populated area. You don't get to drive around shooting wildly into the air.MrJonno wrote:
And quite strange fire a gun anywhere near a city and you could end getting arrested for noise pollution (its a crime in many parts of Switzerland to use your washing machine at night), never mind firearm laws.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
mistermack wrote:In answer (again) to why is this picture relevant, firstly, those people WERE nearly all americans,
secondly, many WERE killed with guns, although the majority took poison, thirdly, I explained it was just in reply to the photos that Coito posted.
But FOURTHLY, as americans, the vast majority had the right to buy some pretty formidable weapons if they wanted.
You have to ask yourself, if THIS MANY people can be persuaded to commit suicide, what would happen if they were persuaded to simultaneously start shooting americans?
How many could a group this size kill? ( they're not all in the pictures ).
Over 900 died of cyanide poisoning. Less than ten were killed with guns, most of which were at the airport, not at Jonestown itself. The odds are that not a single gunshot victim is shown in that photograph. As usual, you and the facts are at odds.
And as far as the "right to buy formidable weapons" if they wanted, a group the size of People's Temple would have relatively little trouble clandestinely manufacturing their own firearms, if they weren't able to acquire them legally.
Last edited by Wumbologist on Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
....all of them were killed in Guyana, slightly outside of American jurisdiction, and the massacre was committed by a maniac and his henchmen.mistermack wrote:In answer (again) to why is this picture relevant, firstly, those people WERE nearly all americans,
secondly, many WERE killed with guns
My photos were posted in reply to someone else's post, and generally directed toward refuting the notion of British superiority. Your posting of Jim Jones' massacre in Guyana does not in the least refute my assertion - which was that British people aren't superior or less "infantile" than Americans. They fucking aren't, and I'm sick and tired of half the arguments made by Brits and other Europeans being punctuated by lines like -- "here in Britain we have adult conversations, not like in the infantile US..." The UK is nothing to fucking write home about, and British society and culture is by no means in any way superior to American culture.mistermack wrote: , although the majority took poison, thirdly, I explained it was just in reply to the photos that Coito posted.
Note: I made no claim that the US was superior to Britain. I'm just not going to tolerate the assertion that a cocked-up overpopulated island has some claim to superiority over the US when there is no evidence for it.
They were in Guyana. As it happens, they would have needed the express permission of the government Guyana to bring those weapons to guyana. To be legally transported across the Guyana border they would have been subject to customs declaration.mistermack wrote: But FOURTHLY, as americans, the vast majority had the right to buy some pretty formidable weapons if they wanted.
Like in Norway a couple of months ago?mistermack wrote: You have to ask yourself, if THIS MANY people can be persuaded to commit suicide, what would happen if they were persuaded to simultaneously start shooting americans?
Well, not as many as in Norway, because if the intended victims are armed, then someone will take out the perpetrator fairly quickly, and he won't be able to stroll around at his leisure and take pot shots at fleeing people.mistermack wrote: How many could a group this size kill? ( they're not all in the pictures ).
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Re: US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It
That's something a lot of Europeans refuse to acknowledge too - that in the US, municipalities regulate where folks can go with guns. You can't just go around hunting near residential areas...ffs.... do Europeans get their information about the US from Spaghetti Westerns?Wumbologist wrote:Uh... that's the case here too. Unless you've got a pretty damn good reason to be firing a gun, you'll find yourself in trouble for it if you're in a populated area. You don't get to drive around shooting wildly into the air.MrJonno wrote:
And quite strange fire a gun anywhere near a city and you could end getting arrested for noise pollution (its a crime in many parts of Switzerland to use your washing machine at night), never mind firearm laws.
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