US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It Out

[klr]

...

I don’t expect (or want) a car ban. All I point out is that a gun ban perforce demands a plethora of more restrictive bans, otherwise it’s just an anti-X lobby forcing their phobia onto others.

I'm afraid that's just NRA-style propaganda. To be exceedingly wary of lethal weapons is hardly a phobia.

I've known people who wouldn't knowingly step into a house with guns, not necessarily because of the gun owners, but literally because they're afraid the guns might somehow go off by themselves and they'd be in the line of fire and die. That's not a rational fear.

Who says that it's this (extreme) fear that is driving the anti-gun lobby in the first place?

And I could just as easily argue that an irrational fear of criminals and the state* is behind the pro-gun lobby.

*Yes, the state. Hello, 2nd amendment.

[colubridae]

...

I don’t expect (or want) a car ban. All I point out is that a gun ban perforce demands a plethora of more restrictive bans, otherwise it’s just an anti-X lobby forcing their phobia onto others.

I'm afraid that's just NRA-style propaganda. To be exceedingly wary of lethal weapons is hardly a phobia.

I'm equally afraid that it is not NRA-style propaganda.

Please refute my argument with something other than hand-waving, otherwise my argument is sound and you look foolish.

My argument is (rephrased)

All I point out is that a gun ban perforce demands a plethora of more restrictive bans against machines that cause death, otherwise it’s just an anti-X lobby forcing their phobia onto others.

Banning guns will end gun deaths (practical absurdities aside)
Banning cars will end car deaths.
Where is the difference?

Please reply with concrete valid arguments, not vague references to someone’s else’s agenda.

[klr]

...

I don’t expect (or want) a car ban. All I point out is that a gun ban perforce demands a plethora of more restrictive bans, otherwise it’s just an anti-X lobby forcing their phobia onto others.

I'm afraid that's just NRA-style propaganda. To be exceedingly wary of lethal weapons is hardly a phobia.

I'm equally afraid that it is not NRA-style propaganda.

Please refute my argument with something other than hand-waving, otherwise my argument is sound and you look foolish.

You're the one making the "phobia" claim, so you back it up with references to robust scientific evidence that support your use of such a term in its proper sense. Unless and until that happens, I can freely dismiss it.

My argument is (rephrased)

All I point out is that a gun ban perforce demands a plethora of more restrictive bans against machines that cause death, otherwise it’s just an anti-X lobby forcing their phobia onto others.

Banning guns will end gun deaths (practical absurdities aside)
Banning cars will end car deaths.
Where is the difference?

Please reply with concrete valid arguments, not vague references to someone’s else’s agenda.

I made no comparisons with or mention of cars, nor did I say or imply that banning guns would end deaths. Those are either someone else's arguments, or else an attempt on your part to construct a straw man. I do not have to answer, refute or otherwise deal with them in any way.

[MrJonno]

I've known people who wouldn't knowingly step into a house with guns, not necessarily because of the gun owners, but literally because they're afraid the guns might somehow go off by themselves and they'd be in the line of fire and die. That's not a rational fear.

Sounds pretty rational to me, not particularly likely but definitely rational

[mistermack]

I've known people who wouldn't knowingly step into a house with guns, not necessarily because of the gun owners, but literally because they're afraid the guns might somehow go off by themselves and they'd be in the line of fire and die. That's not a rational fear.

More likely just politeness.
They don't want to say " I don't trust you and your guns, I think you're a bit of a loony ".
So they feign a phobia. I would probably do the same, if it was someone I didn't want to offend.

[Wumbologist]

I've known people who wouldn't knowingly step into a house with guns, not necessarily because of the gun owners, but literally because they're afraid the guns might somehow go off by themselves and they'd be in the line of fire and die. That's not a rational fear.

Sounds pretty rational to me, not particularly likely but definitely rational

No, it really isn't rational. Guns don't magically go off by themselves. Especially not guns that are stored away and not even loaded. If you think that's rational, it speaks volumes to the credibility of your arguments.

[Wumbologist]

More likely just politeness.
They don't want to say " I don't trust you and your guns, I think you're a bit of a loony ".
So they feign a phobia. I would probably do the same, if it was someone I didn't want to offend.

I wasn't talking specifically about people not stepping into my house. I've only had one such person come over my house, it took a bit of convincing but once she understood that I, like most gun owners, don't keep all my guns loaded and lying around the house, it wasn't an issue.

And I wouldn't associate with people irrational enough to think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns.

[mistermack]

More likely just politeness.
They don't want to say " I don't trust you and your guns, I think you're a bit of a loony ".
So they feign a phobia. I would probably do the same, if it was someone I didn't want to offend.

I wasn't talking specifically about people not stepping into my house. I've only had one such person come over my house, it took a bit of convincing but once she understood that I, like most gun owners, don't keep all my guns loaded and lying around the house, it wasn't an issue.

And I wouldn't associate with people irrational enough to think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns.

Well, If you can prove that you can read minds, then I'm prepared to admit you're safe with guns.
The ball's in your court.

[Wumbologist]

Who says that it's this (extreme) fear that is driving the anti-gun lobby in the first place?

A good deal of it is fear, whether or not you realize it. To someone who isn't familiar with the mechanics and proper handling of firearms, they can be pretty scary. When I first became a gun owner a couple of years ago, I was excited about going to spend time at the range and what have you, but at the same time I still had some fear to get over, myself. I had taken safety classes and understood how to safely and properly handle and store my guns, but as irrational as it was, for the first few weeks that I carried there was a persisting fear that somehow the gun I was carrying, which was absolutely not possible to accidentally discharge without a heavy trigger pull, would somehow "go off" in my pocket. So yes, I do think a lot of it is irrational fear. I'm not saying there aren't logical reasons to disagree with carrying or owning guns, though I don't agree with them myself. But I think that a lot of people's reactions to guns would be changed drastically if they understood them better.

And I could just as easily argue that an irrational fear of criminals and the state* is behind the pro-gun lobby.

*Yes, the state. Hello, 2nd amendment.

Nuttery on either side of the aisle isn't a good thing.

[Wumbologist]

Well, If you can prove that you can read minds, then I'm prepared to admit you're safe with guns.
The ball's in your court.

I wasn't aware that I had claimed to, or even slightly insinuated such abilities in any way. Your imagination is getting the better of you.

It might do well for me to point out again that not long ago, I was anti-gun myself. I'm drawing on experiences from then, as well.

[mistermack]

And I wouldn't associate with people irrational enough to think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns.

Perhaps you can explain how you know what people think then?

[colubridae]

Point taken. I sincerely apologise. I assumed by ‘propaganda’ you meant the car/gun comparison, not the phobia slight.
I have been insulted several times during this thread, so my insult-scanner is on an hair trigger at the moment.

I will rephrase (again).

All I point out is that a gun ban perforce demands a plethora of more restrictive bans against machines that cause death, otherwise it’s just an anti-X lobby forcing their agenda/desires/views onto others.

Have you a point to make concerning:-

Banning guns will end gun deaths (practical absurdities aside)
Banning cars will end car deaths.
Where is the difference?

So far no-one has successfully refuted this.

[Wumbologist]

And I wouldn't associate with people irrational enough to think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns.

Perhaps you can explain how you know what people think then?

I know when people are irrational, and someone irrational enough might think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns. Try to keep up.

[colubridae]

@KLR Actually I think the term phobia is still valid in this context.

If one is fearful of a gun, but not fearful of cars (a machine much more likely to kill you than a gun) then that would qualify as irrational, perhaps not a phobia, but not far short.
So my colloquial use of the word phobia still stands.

Unless of course the individuals objecting to the term phobia are more fearful of cars.

[mistermack]

And I wouldn't associate with people irrational enough to think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns.

Perhaps you can explain how you know what people think then?

I know when people are irrational, and someone irrational enough might think I'm a loony for the mere fact that I own guns. Try to keep up.

I see. You're good. You should be helping the police with their enquiries.