US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It Out

[amok]

Guns do have a unique utility.

Pardon?

They are designed to perform a select function.

Well, yes. I think everyone knows that. But I'm not sure what you're getting at when it comes to this particular discussion.

While I said earlier I don't like the insults, I still think a polite discussion about gun ownership/use in various countries isn't a bad thing. It might dispel some myths, and it might open some possible avenues of thought about why different people in different countries have opposite beliefs, without it having to drop down to "we're better than you."

[JimC]

It's very odd and unpleasant (for me) to read the insults from both sides of this debate.

It really does require a massive leap of logic, in my opinion, to believe that Americans who carry guns are either psychotic or paranoid. It doesn't take into account at all the social/historical factors that make it acceptable, normal (or even desirable), depending on where one lives in the country. I also have been educated about (legal) gun ownership/use in the U.S., in that I now know that it's not quite the gun-happy free-for-all that it's sometimes portrayed. Depending on the state, there does seem to be quite a bit of gun ownership legislation.

However, it also takes a big leap to get to the belief that the unarmed, either in America or in other countries, are fearful so-called sheeple.

A few people have suggested we're walking targets. I don't believe that. I honestly have very, very little to fear in the way of being victimized, and that's how I live my life. And, yes, I know, there's always the off chance, but I long ago decided that other than using basic common sense and knowing a few basic self-defence tactics, it's not good (just for me, personally, because I know my own mind and abilities), to embrace the "possible victim" mentality. It just wouldn't work, for me.

And to be fair, I believe part of that involves my overall world view and personal attitude, which means I will walk where I want, when I want, and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe that attitude actually inhibits those who would victimize someone else, but I don't think there's anyway of knowing that. As an aside, I recently had a very amusing argument with someone about how tall I am - I'm average height (five-foot-four) for a woman my age (I'll be 54 in a couple of months, and I say my age because I know average height is going up with later generations), and this person was INSISTING I was taller. I think it's because I "stand" straight and tall. I also take long, purposeful strides, in general, because that's my nature.

Anyway... so, while I can appreciate that legal gun-owners in America can be both capable and responsible, and certainly aren't de facto nuts, it doesn't mean that people in other countries who opt for stricter gun-control laws are blind slaves to some kind of master class. We democratically elect, year after year and decade after decade, the people who enact the type of gun-control laws we like.

Finally, even if I was somehow magically dropped into a dangerous city in America (or elsewhere, where I would be allowed to carry a handgun for self-defence), I still wouldn't. I'd rely on other methods. And it's not because I'm afraid of guns. It's because I know myself. Half the time, I can't even get my cellphone out of my handbag in time to catch the call. If I was relying on a pistol in my purse to save myself, I'd also have to rely on an attacker patiently waiting while I got it out.

[Gallstones]

Guns do have a unique utility.

Pardon?

They are designed to perform a select function.

Well, yes. I think everyone knows that. But I'm not sure what you're getting at when it comes to this particular discussion.

While I said earlier I don't like the insults, I still think a polite discussion about gun ownership/use in various countries isn't a bad thing. It might dispel some myths, and it might open some possible avenues of thought about why different people in different countries have opposite beliefs, without it having to drop down to "we're better than you."

OK.

I think it is better that I can buy, sell and own guns as opposed to not being able to.

[laklak]

Laklak, you must be full of crap, because you obviously don't mind sharing it.
There are page after page on youtube of how to set bait for bears. And I've seen documentary film of bear hunters in Minnesota, where they "hunt" in exactly the way that C&W cunt did, from a platform up a tree, with bait in a barrel.
Here is just a couple of pages of how to bait. There are loads of others linked on the page:

Bear bait barrel

Tree stand preperation and bear feeding and baiting tips

It seems that you've been a bit economical with the truth. Why does that not surprise me?
You must have some shame then.

I either hold or have held hunting licenses in Florida, North Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia. Florida does not permit bear hunting, the other three ban baiting. Only 11 states allow baiting, so you're incorrect, it is NOT the standard way to hunt bear. But don't let mere facts get in your way, you wouldn't want to turn over any new leaves this late in life.

Oh, and I have no shame about a) hunting b) owning multiple firearms c) having a concealed carry permit.

[JimC]

laklak wrote:

Oh, and I have no shame about a) hunting b) owning multiple firearms c) having a concealed carry permit.

Why conceal it?

Show that carry permit PROUDLY for the whole world to see!

[amok]

Guns do have a unique utility.

Pardon?

They are designed to perform a select function.

Well, yes. I think everyone knows that. But I'm not sure what you're getting at when it comes to this particular discussion.

While I said earlier I don't like the insults, I still think a polite discussion about gun ownership/use in various countries isn't a bad thing. It might dispel some myths, and it might open some possible avenues of thought about why different people in different countries have opposite beliefs, without it having to drop down to "we're better than you."

OK.

I think it is better that I can buy, sell and own guns as opposed to not being able to.

OK. I get that.

The thing is, I gather that the ability to buy, sell and own guns is only slightly different in our countries.

The long-gun registry here, which was supported overwhelmingly by law enforcement because, I believe, the vast majority of domestic, emotion-fuelled, stand-off situations here seem to involve long guns, and police people like to know what they're walking into - is about to be dissolved. Rightly, in my opinion, but because it became a massive bureaucratic boondoggle rather than a problematic policy issue.

There's also a significant divide here between the urban and rural population, in regard to long guns (mostly because of hunting, but also because of issues such as defence of human life/livestock from unfortunate wildlife that's being pushed toward human enclaves). That has to be dealt with sensibly with any new laws.

And even at that, I don't know a single hunter here (being in an urban, but still quite "close to the wild" area) who has an issue with the former regulations (registration, safety rules re: trigger locks and separation of guns and ammunition, etc.) or bans on specific weapons (automatics). It was just that it got wonky, because paper-pushers got involved. I'm confident new, more sensible rules will be developed.

Handgun prohibitions here are obviously much more stringent than in the U.S. - it's really only legal for target shooting here - but it's not like some U.S. states don't have similar laws.

[charlou]

Jonesville ? Bit worse than a few drunken women ?

Dammit mistermack, you know how to put a punch behind your posts.

Emotive manipulation is kind of in poor form don't you think?

The evidence speaks for itself.

I know our (Australian) gun laws are tighter by comparison, but I don't know the current status of gun laws in the US ... do they vary significantly from state to state? Is there any attempt to restrict who has access to guns?

[Wumbologist]

The evidence speaks for itself.

I'm not sure how Jonestown, in which people died of cyanide poisoning, is at all relevant to a thread about guns.

I know our (Australian) gun laws are tighter by comparison, but I don't know the current status of gun laws in the US ... do they vary significantly from state to state? Is there any attempt to restrict who has access to guns?

We have gun laws on a federal level, and gun laws that vary wildly from state to state. On a federal level, the NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System ) prohibits sales to convicted criminals, drug addicts, people adjudicated mentally defective, people dishonorably discharged from the military, subjects of restraining orders, etc.

[charlou]

The evidence speaks for itself.

I'm not sure how Jonestown, in which people died of cyanide poisoning, is at all relevant to a thread about guns.

It's not, but shouldn't you be quoting mistermack's post to make that point. I was responding to gallstones' response to mistermack. I could have responded in a separate post to make it distinct from my question on the thread topic, though.

I know our (Australian) gun laws are tighter by comparison, but I don't know the current status of gun laws in the US ... do they vary significantly from state to state? Is there any attempt to restrict who has access to guns?

We have gun laws on a federal level, and gun laws that vary wildly from state to state. On a federal level, the NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System ) prohibits sales to convicted criminals, drug addicts, people adjudicated mentally defective, people dishonorably discharged from the military, subjects of restraining orders, etc.

Okay, thanks for the info.

I've been considering the points of the pro-gun side and reconsidering my own stance. Not necessarily changing my personal preference, but understanding the other point of view better.

[mistermack]

Plenty of people were shot in Jonestown, although most were poisoned.
I posted those pics in response to Coito's post of drunken brits lying in the street, they just reminded me for some reason.
It does illustrate something though, about the US, and not that it's better or worse, but it does seem to take things to excess. It's not the only one, I know, but for the richest country in the world, it seems to retain some surprising third world attitudes. ( religion, health, guns, war, capital punishment etc ).

[mozg]

We have gun laws on a federal level, and gun laws that vary wildly from state to state. On a federal level, the NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System ) prohibits sales to convicted criminals, drug addicts, people adjudicated mentally defective, people dishonorably discharged from the military, subjects of restraining orders, etc.

Add to that you cannot purchase any sort of firearm from a dealer until you are 18 years old (long guns) or 21 years old (handguns).

It's also a federal felony to knowingly allow a prohibited person to even touch a gun. Additionally, whether or not a person can carry a firearm on their person outside their own home is regulated state by state, typically more stringently than ownership.

I think people get this idea from Hollywood that there is no regulation at all and that you can just walk into any store, anywhere, and buy a gun as easily as you can a pack of gum. Not really the case at all.

[Coito ergo sum]

Laklak, you must be full of crap, because you obviously don't mind sharing it.
There are page after page on youtube of how to set bait for bears. And I've seen documentary film of bear hunters in Minnesota, where they "hunt" in exactly the way that C&W cunt did, from a platform up a tree, with bait in a barrel.
Here is just a couple of pages of how to bait. There are loads of others linked on the page:

Bear bait barrel

Tree stand preperation and bear feeding and baiting tips

It seems that you've been a bit economical with the truth. Why does that not surprise me?
You must have some shame then.

I either hold or have held hunting licenses in Florida, North Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia. Florida does not permit bear hunting, the other three ban baiting. Only 11 states allow baiting, so you're incorrect, it is NOT the standard way to hunt bear. But don't let mere facts get in your way, you wouldn't want to turn over any new leaves this late in life.

Oh, and I have no shame about a) hunting b) owning multiple firearms c) having a concealed carry permit.

I hear they bait cows from the time they are calfs. One day, a hunter comes along and kills them by the thousands. Machines and people carve them up and package them. These cows killed via baiting can be found in pieces on supermarket shelves every day. Chickens are baited too - they are put into small pens and fed daily until it's time for them to be placed on styrofoam trays, covered in plastic and priced. Hunting bears, though. That's beyond the pale.

[Coito ergo sum]

The evidence speaks for itself.

I'm not sure how Jonestown, in which people died of cyanide poisoning, is at all relevant to a thread about guns.

I suppose it proves unequivocally that people that don't carry guns are psychotic and paranoid?

[mistermack]

Laklak, you must be full of crap, because you obviously don't mind sharing it.
There are page after page on youtube of how to set bait for bears. And I've seen documentary film of bear hunters in Minnesota, where they "hunt" in exactly the way that C&W cunt did, from a platform up a tree, with bait in a barrel.
Here is just a couple of pages of how to bait. There are loads of others linked on the page:

Bear bait barrel

Tree stand preperation and bear feeding and baiting tips

It seems that you've been a bit economical with the truth. Why does that not surprise me?
You must have some shame then.

I either hold or have held hunting licenses in Florida, North Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia. Florida does not permit bear hunting, the other three ban baiting. Only 11 states allow baiting, so you're incorrect, it is NOT the standard way to hunt bear. But don't let mere facts get in your way, you wouldn't want to turn over any new leaves this late in life.

Oh, and I have no shame about a) hunting b) owning multiple firearms c) having a concealed carry permit.

Laklak, you started off by pretending it didn't go on. Why should anybody believe you now?
I don't believe your stories of not baiting, and hunting with dogs.
I think you, like other so called "hunters" are a master baiter.

[Coito ergo sum]

I've been considering the points of the pro-gun side and reconsidering my own stance. Not necessarily changing my personal preference, but understanding the other point of view better.

Part of the problem with this whole debate, sort of like the abortion debate, is you get people taking sides and then arguing against the exaggerated, extreme view that the other side holds.

On the one hand, we get some folks claiming that gun advocates must be in favor of completely unregulated gun ownership, to the point of private ownership of rocket propelled grenades and M-60 military machine guns. And, the gun advocates claim that those who are "anti-gun" must be in favor of complete banning of all weapons, ever, under all circumstances.

Most people generally adopt a position located somewhere within one standard deviation from the midpoint.

I consider myself "pro gun ownership," because I think most people can be trusted with most things, because my overall opinion of people in general is that they are good, and self-regulating moral actors. I think that there are a number of IMO "legitimate" reasons to have guns, and that they are a tool - like a saw or a knife. Can they be used for bad purposes? Sure they can. So can aspirin, but that's sold over-the-counter...to the chil'run - gasp!!!!

Does that mean that EVERY gun of EVERY size and capacity must be legal? Does that mean there can't be regimes of registration? Does that mean that the government can't require that people are trained and instructed on proper use and handling? Does that mean that ownership of certain weapons ought not require a license? And, can we restrict ownership to non-violent folks, non-felons, non-psychotics, etc? -- I think that all those kinds of regulations can very well be appropriate.

In the US the laws vary from state to state, and that seems to make sense. The country is very big. And, a guy in Wyoming, where there is 1 person per square mile, ought very well have fewer impediments to walking down the street with a shotgun, rifle and handgun, than some guy living a block from Central Park in NYC. The needs of the community are different. The purposes for owning and carrying around a gun are different.

I can tell all the Europeans out there who want to pretend like Americans walk around with sidearms every day, and that we munch our McDonald's burgers daily with background music in the form of gunfire, that that isn't the case. If you come to the US and walk around New York City, you won't see a gun, most likely, except on the belt of a police officer. I've run into many Europeans in Florida, because despite your abject scorn for the US, you folks seem to come here in droves - and bleat on about how much you love it here. Not a single one of them encountered a gun in the US.