US Philadelphia Student Carrying Legal Firearm Shoots It Out

[Clinton Huxley]

Nobody gets into their car to commit a massacre, at a school or university say, with the intention of running dozens of people over.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-10-10/ ... bus-driver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10837287

Anecdotes. Well done,old chap.

Factual news stories are not anecdotes. You claimed nobody gets into a car to commit a massacre, and I've just shown that they do. Nobody will think less of you if you go ahead and admit that you're wrong and I'm right and that makes me fantastic.

I've never questioned your fantasticalness but a handful of car-related anecdotes do not really refute my point.

[Coito ergo sum]

Deliberately owning or carrying a weapon is not the same as deliberately owning or driving a car. I don't get into my car thinking about how I would run someone over if I had to. The psychology of driving a car and carrying a gun are different.

So what? And I doubt you know what the "psychology" of carrying a gun actually is because I doubt you've ever carried one or been trained to do so in a civilian self-defense mode.

Of course I've never carried one, as I'm neither a psychopath nor paranoid. Fortunately, I live in a country where a grown up debate about guns has been possible, unlike the infantile United States, where guns "protect us from gubmint tyranny" and any proposed restriction is met with howls of protest from deluded zealots.

With all due respect, Clinton, that is insulting, as well as bullshit. One, I've never carried a gun, but carrying a gun is not an indicator that a person is a psychopath or paranoid. I'm sure there are psychos and paranoids who do own guns, but I'm sure many of them live in houses and drive cars too.

And, what is with this "we live in a country where we have a grown up debate," garbage? Where do you folks get off with the bald-faced arrogance and self-conceit? Your country is no better or more erudite, or more "grown up" than the United States. You clearly don't know the first thing about the United States, or its "debate" about guns.

Yes, some people do advance the notion of guns being a constitutional right as a defense of tyranny, but that's not the only or even the major argument in favor of gun rights. Further there are many regulations of guns in the US - permits to own certain weapons - licenses to carry - licenses to carry concealed - gun registration of certain weapons, etc. It would be very silly to adopt the position that the US is completely free relative to gun ownership.

I've never owned a gun. I've fired them a few times. I've never carried a gun. But, I am not prone to knee-jerk reactions about how awful they are, and I don't quiver and quake in my boots at the thought of someone holding or carrying a gun, and I can certainly recognize the merits of an armed citizenry trained in the use of weapons.

One point to make is that different legal regimes are appropriate for different countries. With all due respect, sir, you blokes pack your entire population into a single island, for the most part, the size of Louisiana. We are a nation of varied geography and of substantial size with many folks living many miles from the nearest police officer. Some folks need a gun because calling the police would require them to invite an intruder to tea while awaiting the arrival of a bobby or two. We have forests and millions of acres of hunting areas, all loaded with game that people eat instead of hamburgers and bacon.

It really is insulting, and worse than that - false and idiotic - to make these "we're so much better than you infantile Americans" arguments, and it happens all the time. Similar lines invariably get tossed out into the mix by some indignant Brit or continental European. That's what irks me from time to time on a lot of these threads - you fuckers go on about how everything in America sucks - we're all stupid, fat, infantile, and every other term in the book, and apparently everything sucks here worse than in your spectacular countries.

Well, you know what: you're fucking wrong. The average person in your country lives less well - at a lower standard of living - than we do in the US, and despite how bad unemployment, etc., is here - it's worse in your country. Your food is no better. Your beer is no better. Your people are no smarter, and they don't even speak English any better (except maybe a precious few folks living only in certain areas of a certain corner of one of the kingdoms in your united kingdom). You don't have more "adult" conversations than we have in the US, and to the extent the US has crackpots making "infantile" arguments, I've heard a similar contingent of dumb-ass Brits who are quite the same. Your houses are smaller - tiny - in fact - and your water pressure sucks. Your hotels are tiny, and rather dirty, and the water pressure in your hotels sucks. Your food is nothing to write home about, and your women all grow old to look like men, and your men all grow old to look more an more like old women. You're hardly less fat than we are in the US, but you're so ignorant of that fact that you blokes still run around all day claiming to be skinny and that Americans are fat - look up the numbers - half your country looks like Arnslo on "Keeping Up Appearances." Half your women under 30 wake up drunk every Sunday morning in the gutter. I could go on....

[Coito ergo sum]

And another thing, as for some people advancing the notion of guns being a constitutional right as a defense of tyranny, that's a fucking British argument in favor of an armed citizenry. It's part of British constitutional and common law starting with Magna Carta and developing over centuries through the British bills of rights and other sources of your unintelligible constitutional law that both is and isn't malleable at the same time. Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, Book 1 Ch 1 - "The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject ... is that of having arms for their defence," and Blackstone indicated that at the time it was a "natural right" of Englishmen to be armed. See also, the English Bill of Rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689 , which reestablished certain "ancient rights" that your King James had taken from the people, one which was a right to arms. It was an individual right not to be disarmed by the Crown.

So, in terms of an "adult" conversation, rather than an "infantile" one, perhaps some due regard for history and law, particularly constitutional law on both sides of the pond, ought to be considered at the outset, yes?

[Wumbologist]

I've never questioned your fantasticalness but a handful of car-related anecdotes do not really refute my point.

I'm glad my fantasticality isn't in question here, but I still disagree. Your claim was that people don't get into cars with the intent to kill. I have shown three prominent, well-known incidents where they did just that, and there have been many others.

Palestinian bus driver intentionally kills 8 in Israel: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1222412.stm

Czech woman who plowed into a group of 25 people waiting for a tram, killing 8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Hepnarov%C3%A1

Woman in Reno who drove down the sidewalk, killing 7 and injuring nearly 2 dozen more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_Ford

Attack on the Dutch royal family, in which 7 bystanders were killed and many more injured: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_attac ... yal_family

If the will to kill is there, a car will do the job perfectly fine. There are a lot of options besides a gun for killing large numbers of people, and if there's one thing that our species is good at, it's finding those options. Timothy McVeigh likely owned guns, but when he wanted to kill a lot of people in Oklahoma, he didn't reach for a rifle. He rented a Ryder truck and filled it with fertilizer and fuel oil, and blew up a building. When Al-Qaeda wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, they didn't come ashore on rafts to NYC and DC and start firing AK's into crowds. They hijacked airliners, and used them to kill thousands. It's naive to think that attempting to remove one tool, especially one which millions use lawfully and which has the potential to defend against others who might wish one harm, could have an impact on the ability for man to kill man.

[Wumbologist]

Of course I've never carried one, as I'm neither a psychopath nor paranoid. Fortunately, I live in a country where a grown up debate about guns has been possible, unlike the infantile United States, where guns "protect us from gubmint tyranny" and any proposed restriction is met with howls of protest from deluded zealots.



I've just seen your reference to "wolf-walkers". Dear oh dear, you are a cartoon.

.

For the sake of this post, leave Seth aside for the moment. I agree with him in general on the topic of gun control, but I would agree that he can be a bit over the top. How much of that is an act to whip you folks into a tissy fit I don't claim to know.

I also carry a gun just about every day, and have been doing so for over two years now. Do you have any valid reason, besides the mere fact that I own and carry guns, to assume that I am paranoid or a psychopath? I don't think I'd be out of line to claim that the opinions I've stated, regardless of whether or not you and I agree on them, have been stated in a rational and logical manner. I don't think I fit the bill for a psychopath, and genuinely hope that I go to my grave having never had reason to point a gun at another human being, much less shoot or kill them with one. Statistically speaking, as someone who doesn't frequent the same sort of places that trouble does, and doesn't associate with the same crowd as it, there's a pretty good chance that I won't have to. If that bears out in fact, I will be glad for it. However, despite the relatively small risk, the stakes are high enough that I don't consider it unreasonable to be prepared, just in case. There are a lot of people out there who aren't as sane or rational as you or I, and I don't think it's paranoid to be prepared in case one crosses my path and I'm forced to defend myself.

[Clinton Huxley]

CES stop whining like a girl. Wumbo, of course not all gun owners are psychos, just most of the ones who are members here.

[Robert_S]

CES stop whining like a girl. Wumbo, of course not all gun owners are psychos, just most of the ones who are members here.

I've told you before, I'm quite secure in my psychosis and not need guns or any other consumer goods to validate it.

[Clinton Huxley]

To paraphrase bill hicks, you dont need a gun to feel good about yourself. Whats wrong with a fruit cup?

[Wumbologist]

CES stop whining like a girl. Wumbo, of course not all gun owners are psychos, just most of the ones who are members here.

I think you'd be surprised at how many gun owners are perfectly normal people who happen to own guns. I have friends and family who own guns, and none of them are what I would consider "psycho". My uncle is maybe a bit goofy on the political end of things, but he's a good person. I've met plenty of people at the range who were perfectly polite, well-spoken, rational people, who just happened to own and shoot and sometimes carry guns. I won't deny that I've also met some yahoo gun owners, but the overwhelming majority of them were not of the dangerous type. The small portion of truly dangerous yahoo gun owners cannot be ignored, but I think those types would be plenty dangerous no matter what weapon they had available. You likely don't have the same level of personal experience dealing with gun owners that I do, and it's easy to form opinions of what they must be like based on what the media tells you.

[Pensioner]

CES stop whining like a girl. Wumbo, of course not all gun owners are psychos, just most of the ones who are members here.

Can I use that as a sig. I love it.

[Pensioner]

Did I ever tell you when I was shot serving in Ireland Clinton, it did fucking smart.

[Clinton Huxley]

I like you Wumbo. I do. I think you can keep your gun. No ammo though.

[Coito ergo sum]

CES stop whining like a girl. Wumbo, of course not all gun owners are psychos, just most of the ones who are members here.

I will stop whining, when you and others stop it with the British superiority nonsense. It's funny for a while, but it does get tiresome, especially when offered seriously and in a serious conversation (as opposed to busting each other's balls -- or as the Britisher's say "taking the piss"). Fuck - it's just a great big fucking pet peeve that some douche bags on a barely relevant little blurb of a barely relevant little island have this idea that they are somehow far more "adult" and evolved and erudite than the rest of the fucking world and the US in particular.

Your statement was pretty clear. You didn't own or carry a gun because you're not a gun owner or a psycho, and in England you have adult debates about things, as opposed to the "infantile" United States.

[Wumbologist]

I like you Wumbo. I do. I think you can keep your gun. No ammo though.

No ammo? Guess I won't be much help when the French are storming your gates.

[Svartalf]

Do we surrender to the butler or can we stick his head atop a pike first?