A conversation with Koko the talking gorilla

[JimC]

Lozzer, this post (and another post a little later in the thread) are personal attacks on another member. This is a warning that a repetition will result in a suspension.

[normal]

I thought this was going to be a racist thread about the indian guy working on the corner shop

[Lozzer]

Lozzer, this post (and another post a little later in the thread) are personal attacks on another member. This is a warning that a repetition will result in a suspension.

I read the article.

In which case you're just another stupid member of the female species, and nothing can be done for you.

Ayep ... a cage, frightened cats and twats who try to anthropomorphise apes to an exploitative, even abusive degree.

Perhaps you should actually read the article before expressing your emotive, knee jerk antiscience nonsense?

Stupid woman

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Lozzer has been suspended for 24 hours for repeated personal attacks.

[charlou]

You shouldn't have I was enjoying having a private moment *jizz* at the attention before reading elsewhere.

[Rob]

I don't understand your point, Charlou. I don't see this as all that exploitative nor repugnant. To further that, I don't see it as an attempt to humanize an ape. When I first learned about it in an anthropology class I saw it as a scientific study that furthered our knowledge of great apes. Nothing since than has changed this perspective. While I don't agree with anything else Lozzer said, I read this as a knee-jerk reaction. What exactly bothers you about this study?

As far as the article is concerned, I can only repeat comment made on the article:

"I'm damn sure I read this story 30 odd yrs ago this is old news, very old. Koko has been a star for ages we know she's able to sign, apparently, but like some of the commentors said below, couldn't the writer have given us a more interesting and informative report?

Was it an agreement the writer had with Dr Patterson not to write anything more critical or questioning as to whether Koko is really communicating? "

It was interesting to read about Koko once again but there was nothing really new to present to those who were aware of Koko and her kitten.

[charlou]

Well that was depressing.

Well that was horrible thank you for posting it .

Why did you think so, guys?

[Hermit]

Koko looked like she really enjoyed playing with the kitten, but the kitten was definitely not reciprocating. Her forlorn attempts to squirm out of Koko's grasp were saddening and angering me all the more because I could tell that kitty knew she had no chance. It wasn't really surprising that she would get run over and killed once she did manage to escape. I have seen this pattern often enough with dogs and cats in my travels. The unfortunate pets were wandering haphazardly along Bennelong Road in Homebush - an industrial area before it was turned into a main location for the Sydney Olympic games - in the morning. In the afternoon or evening I'd see their carcase on the road's shoulder.

The Youtube clips suck too. They look like publicity releases, replete with soothing background musak and lack even a hint of scientific rigour. No Ministry of Truth could have done better at pulling at emotional strings, and neither could someone like Leni Riefenstahl.

[tattuchu]

Well that was depressing.

Well that was horrible thank you for posting it .

Why did you think so, guys?

Because Koko so obviously loved the kitten, and was heartbroken when told it had died. To see her express it in such a way that we humans could clearly understand it made it even more painful to watch. I know that apes are intelligent, but you don't ordinarily think of them as having the same feelings as we do. "Ah, they're just animals," I might think. But here, they're shown to be so close to human as to make it difficult to watch when we see she's hurting.


About the other issue, of the kitten not reciprocating Koko's affection, it's difficult to tell just from this short clip. I admit I had the same immediate reaction, the feeling that the kitten's not liking that very much. But as the clip played on, I thought I might have been mistaken in that initial assessment. I'd have to see more footage of them together to really say for sure. But why wouldn't the kitten bond with an ape as it might bond with a human? Why would it be frightened? The ape is being very gentle with it.

[amok]

I don't quite understand the concept of "the kitteh didn't like it." I have to think some people haven't actually seen a truly distressed/frightened cat. Good grief, they're squirming, spitting, clawing, squawking, whirling dervishes!

The reaction of the kitten (in the provided video) is so, SO tame in comparison to "fright" reactions I've seen, and I've fostered both abused/neglected and feral cats over the years.

I don't understand why anyone would think the kitten in that video was actually in distress. Bugged, perhaps, but sort of in the way kitties can be when humans fawn over them when they're not in the mood. But distressed or scared? Get out.

[charlou]

I don't quite understand the concept of "the kitteh didn't like it." I have to think some people haven't actually seen a truly distressed/frightened cat. Good grief, they're squirming, spitting, clawing, squawking, whirling dervishes!

The reaction of the kitten (in the provided video) is so, SO tame in comparison to "fright" reactions I've seen, and I've fostered both abused/neglected and feral cats over the years.

I don't understand why anyone would think the kitten in that video was actually in distress. Bugged, perhaps, but sort of in the way kitties can be when humans fawn over them when they're not in the mood. But distressed or scared? Get out.

I don't understand how anyone who claims experience with cats cannot see the cat's aversion in this video.

But that's not the only point. Certain assumptions/assertions are made about koko's behaviour as it coincides with how humans behave. Emotive language and presentation is used to get that across. Fuck off with that approach, imo.

Seeking and presenting evidence and leaving out any manipulative presentation is science.

[Hermit]

I don't quite understand the concept of "the kitteh didn't like it."

Having had cats around me for close to fifty years it is not difficult for me to 'understand the concept of "the kitteh didn't like it."' It shouldn't take that long to understand, though. Judging by the kitty's demeanour, it is pretty clear to me that she did not like the situation she was in.

[mistermack]

The kitten looked ok to me.
That's what kittens do, you pick them up, they wriggle and struggle to get free. All they want to do is wander around investigating their environment.
I've seen mother cats, even mother tigers handling them much more roughly than the gorilla, when they wander.
And if you compare it to the treatment kittens get from little children in the average human family, it was definitely coddled. They are as tough as old boots.

[amok]

I don't quite understand the concept of "the kitteh didn't like it."

Having had cats around me for close to fifty years it is not difficult for me to 'understand the concept of "the kitteh didn't like it."' It shouldn't take that long to understand, though. Judging by the kitty's demeanour, it is pretty clear to me that she did not like the situation she was in.

I watched the video again to make sure I didn't miss something the first time. There's no way that kitten was in distress, in my opinion.

[Feck]

No, I see it , I didn't think the kitten was any more distressed than most when man handled by a child at home , but the cat died having "escaped "!

I didn't see at first that the gorilla might be abusing the cat ,but think about it not only are the keepers ignoring if the cat wants to be 'mauled 'by an ape but they are setting the gorilla up for the heart break of having a pet die . This seems like it was done to give a nice Photo -op of the ape with a Kitten something clearly instigated to get her broody because they wanted the most 'Talkative ' apes to breed . I have my doubts , was Koko given a kitten to help her ,honestly or was it seen as a legitimate course of action to Humanise Great apes to bring about better treatment ?
In the video about Michel I noticed that there was justification for bush meat as the only source of protein available THIS is a LIE I presume it was told because the study of great apes in the wild depends on the cooperation of governments that tolerate bush kill ?
I have heard Africans describe extra-marital sex as bush -kill BTW ( IE You know it's wrong but there are no witnesses)