US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Locked
User avatar
Schneibster
Asker of inconvenient questions
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:22 pm
About me: I hate cranks.
Location: Late. I'm always late.
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Schneibster » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:36 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:

Adding $4 trillion of debt in 8 years is:

Irresponsible
Unpatriotic

Doing it in 4 years is.....? :doh:
Adding $4 trillion of debt in eight years to fight an unnecessary war and pay contractors who provided unusable and unsafe products thus ripping off the public is irresponsible and unpatriotic.
What a joke.

How much did Iraq cost under Bush again?
A couple trillion bucks.
Coito ergo sum wrote:And, which contractors provide what unusable and unsafe products?
FEMA contractors provided trailers for Katrina victims that poisoned them with formaldehyde. Electrical contractors wired the electricity to the water supply in Iraq in the new "super embassy." That'll do for starters.
Coito ergo sum wrote:Oh, and Obama didn't qualify his statement.
First lie, sport.

It's a 40-second soundbite. Gee, I wonder if he talked there for more than forty seconds? Duh.

Bye now.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
Image

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:48 pm

Schneibster wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:

Adding $4 trillion of debt in 8 years is:

Irresponsible
Unpatriotic

Doing it in 4 years is.....? :doh:
Adding $4 trillion of debt in eight years to fight an unnecessary war and pay contractors who provided unusable and unsafe products thus ripping off the public is irresponsible and unpatriotic.
What a joke.

How much did Iraq cost under Bush again?
A couple trillion bucks.
The CBO estimated $1 trillion to $2 trillion in total estimated long term costs through 2050 (including long term care for veterans, etc.). It absolutely was not "a couple trillion bucks" under Bush. Try again, sunshine. Congress allocated about $600 billion for the Iraq War through 2008. But, hey, you were only off by about 70% - close enough for government work! :biggrin:
Schneibster wrote:[
Coito ergo sum wrote:And, which contractors provide what unusable and unsafe products?
FEMA contractors provided trailers for Katrina victims that poisoned them with formaldehyde. Electrical contractors wired the electricity to the water supply in Iraq in the new "super embassy." That'll do for starters.
And, you think that the performance of government contractors has somehow been improved under the current administration? What, did all that "hoping" improve quality control?

Moreover - what are the costs of FEMA trailers and and the electrical contractors - that really tipped the scales, eh?

But, you won't have me arguing that there's no such thing as government waste and incompetence, regardless of who is President. You, apparently, have some sort of delusion that the current administration is immune, though.

Let's see -- In 2010, the Constellation Program was canceled (remember the Moon program, before Obama cancelled it...?) But the 2012 Commerce bill confirms that the program continues to receive funding. Still funding a canceled program....nice job! And, how 'bout dem ethanol subsidies -- cost $30 billion in five years....

And, then there was cash for clunkers, which cost the taxpayers about $45,000 a vehicle....might as well have bought people new cars! nice job, eh? $3 billion was allocated to that dopey program in 2009 alone!

And, all that "Stimulus Money" - put to good use, helping the Mohegan Indian tribe, in Connecticut, run their casinos. Over a million dollars was allocated to putting a guard rail around a lake in Oklahoma, only the lake doesn't exist. A dinner cruise company in Chicago was paid $1 million in stimulus funds to "combat terrorism." Sheltering Arms Senior Services was awarded a contract worth $22.3 million in stimulus money to weatherize homes for poor families in Houston, Texas - but the work was performed so badly that 33 of the 53 homes will need to be completely redone. Stimulus money was used to fund "socially conscious puppet shows" in Minnesota. A Duke University professor was given Stimulus Money to study Facebook. There's the "ecopassage" in Florida, to help turtles cross a highway, which cost several million dollars. I could go on....and on....and on.....

You want to look at waste? $1.4 trillion dollar DEFICIT, coming up.....

Schneibster wrote:[
Coito ergo sum wrote:Oh, and Obama didn't qualify his statement.
First lie, sport.

It's a 40-second soundbite. Gee, I wonder if he talked there for more than forty seconds? Duh.

Bye now.
LOL - you have evidence that he qualified his statement? Let's see it. If not, keep your bullshit allegations of lying to yourself. Or, you could just assume that Obama must have qualified his statement, after all -- he's the good guy, right? :bored:

User avatar
Tyrannical
Posts: 6468
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:59 am
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Tyrannical » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:42 pm

Moreover - what are the costs of FEMA trailers and and the electrical contractors - that really tipped the scales, eh?
As Ron Paul said, FEMA bought ice for the Katrina victims. In New England, it took two weeks to end up in Nebraska. Walmart got ice there quicker.
The Governor could have gotten on the phone with Walmart HQ, said we need this, this, and this and you can bet Walmart would have moved stock country wide efficiently to meet the demand. If you had the Federal and National Guard troops in State like they belonged to coordinate disaster relief, you wouldn't need a Federal organization that only gets in the way.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:22 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
Moreover - what are the costs of FEMA trailers and and the electrical contractors - that really tipped the scales, eh?
As Ron Paul said, FEMA bought ice for the Katrina victims. In New England, it took two weeks to end up in Nebraska. Walmart got ice there quicker.
The Governor could have gotten on the phone with Walmart HQ, said we need this, this, and this and you can bet Walmart would have moved stock country wide efficiently to meet the demand. If you had the Federal and National Guard troops in State like they belonged to coordinate disaster relief, you wouldn't need a Federal organization that only gets in the way.
FEMA should be renamed to "Federal Emergency Logistics and Training Agency" and should be (at best) reduced to two roles:

First, it should provide educational and on-request consultation services to state and local agencies and training to first responders. Like NIST, FELTA should be a research-coordination and data respository for emergency management information, including GIS data, flood data and other information that LOCAL agencies need to accurately assess and respond to natural disasters. It should also provide training for small local agencies that cannot afford to put on adequate first-responder training programs. It can start by seizing the Marine Corps new earthquake disaster simulation facility and using it to train local civilian teams while the military gets the fuck out of disaster response and sticks to fighting wars and securing our borders.

Second, FELTA should create, stock, maintain and distribute ON REQUEST by local authorities, portable "disaster packs" tailored to specific disasters, including particularly nuclear, biological and chemical attacks. They already have these truck and helicopter-portable containers that hold things like stockpiles of Cipro for distribution in the event of an anthrax attack. In other words, it should be a WAREHOUSING and DELIVERY organization for the expedient delivery of specialized rescue, relief and mitigation supplies that cannot be efficiently or effectively maintained at the local level.
FELTA should be tasked ONLY with creating, stocking, maintaining and delivering such goods, but ONLY on the request of local authorities or command of the President, but it should have NO direct management responsibilities for the goods. It should be simply the emergency management equivalent of UPS. Call 'em up and ask for a "flood disaster pack" and they drop one in the parking lot by helicopter and then go home, leaving the use of the goods to the trained local emergency managers.

And that's ALL FEMA (FELTA) should be permitted to do.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Schneibster
Asker of inconvenient questions
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:22 pm
About me: I hate cranks.
Location: Late. I'm always late.
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:24 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Schneibster wrote:A couple trillion bucks.
The CBO estimated $1 trillion to $2 trillion in total
We're done here.

The first lie is you saying this is wrong. You just admitted, before you said it, that I'm right.

Gee, this time we didn't even have to actually read the lie again. Nice.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
Image

User avatar
Schneibster
Asker of inconvenient questions
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:22 pm
About me: I hate cranks.
Location: Late. I'm always late.
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
Moreover - what are the costs of FEMA trailers and and the electrical contractors - that really tipped the scales, eh?
As Ron Paul said, FEMA bought ice for the Katrina victims. In New England, it took two weeks to end up in Nebraska. Walmart got ice there quicker.
The Governor could have gotten on the phone with Walmart HQ, said we need this, this, and this and you can bet Walmart would have moved stock country wide efficiently to meet the demand. If you had the Federal and National Guard troops in State like they belonged to coordinate disaster relief, you wouldn't need a Federal organization that only gets in the way.
And everybody would have gone to the ATM and got money to buy it.

Oh, wait...
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
Image

User avatar
Schneibster
Asker of inconvenient questions
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:22 pm
About me: I hate cranks.
Location: Late. I'm always late.
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:26 pm

A government is an insurance company with an army.

Libertardians wanna eliminate the insurance after we already paid for it, and steal the money.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
Image

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:44 pm

Schneibster wrote:A government is an insurance company with an army.

Libertardians wanna eliminate the insurance after we already paid for it, and steal the money.
Insurance is a racket to fleece people of their money by trading on their fears, so in that regard, some governments are exactly that...they fleece the citizenry for their money, but they never, ever pay off when things go sour, they just say "Oops, sorry, we already spent your money on somebody else."

That's why smart people don't give money to insurance companies or government if they can avoid it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Robert_S » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:47 pm

Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:A government is an insurance company with an army.

Libertardians wanna eliminate the insurance after we already paid for it, and steal the money.
Insurance is a racket to fleece people of their money by trading on their fears, so in that regard, some governments are exactly that...they fleece the citizenry for their money, but they never, ever pay off when things go sour, they just say "Oops, sorry, we already spent your money on somebody else."

That's why smart people don't give money to insurance companies or government if they can avoid it.
When has an insurance company reneged?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
Schneibster
Asker of inconvenient questions
Posts: 3976
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:22 pm
About me: I hate cranks.
Location: Late. I'm always late.
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:58 pm

Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:A government is an insurance company with an army.

Libertardians wanna eliminate the insurance after we already paid for it, and steal the money.
Insurance is a racket to fleece people of their money by trading on their fears,
:lol:
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
Image

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:58 pm

Robert_S wrote:
Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:A government is an insurance company with an army.

Libertardians wanna eliminate the insurance after we already paid for it, and steal the money.
Insurance is a racket to fleece people of their money by trading on their fears, so in that regard, some governments are exactly that...they fleece the citizenry for their money, but they never, ever pay off when things go sour, they just say "Oops, sorry, we already spent your money on somebody else."

That's why smart people don't give money to insurance companies or government if they can avoid it.
When has an insurance company reneged?
Er, isn't that the primary complaint about America's existing health care insurance system, that it constantly renegs on what it's promised to deliver?

It doesn't, by the way, but the Progressives would like us to believe it does. What it actually does is abides by the contract it has with its customers, which the customers rarely actually bother to read and understand, which states quite clearly what's covered and what the limitations on coverage are, right up front.

And I didn't say that insurance companies reneg (though they do from time to time, or try to) I said it's a giant racket put together to fleece people by frightening them into buying unnecessary insurance coverage. The Allstate "Mr. Mayhem" ad campaign is absolutely brilliant, but it's completely bogus fearmongering intended to persuade people they need insurance for things they either don't, or added coverage for things that are already covered in most policies.

People who have little to lose don't need insurance. Those who have valuable items certainly have the right to insure them. But take mandatory auto liability insurance mandates. It's the complete reversal of the entire insurance paradigm, which is "I have something worth insuring, so I pay to insure it against a set of perils." Auto mandatory liability is exactly the opposite, it's "The government believes that I may not have enough assets to pay for some harm I cause to someone else, so it's going to require me to insure the rest of society against my potential bad conduct."

The proper paradigm is that if you are concerned about some other un or underinsured motorist causing you a loss, then YOU go buy insurance to insure your assets and your health against such an eventuality, at YOUR expense. And people who have no assets that they care to insure don't.

Then, when the uninsured runs into you, your insurance covers your loss and you get to sue the guy who wronged you for punitive damages in some cases.

But so long as the person who has nothing to insure doesn't hurt someone else, they don't have to spend money insuring everyone else.

Like I said, insurance is a racket, and it's one supported by government.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Robert_S » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:01 am

Apparently Seth, you've never been in an auto accident where a dirt poor deadbeat nailed you.
Seth wrote:but they never, ever pay off when things go sour, they just say "Oops, sorry, we already spent your money on somebody else."
So, how often does this actually happen?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Warren Dew » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:15 am

Robert_S wrote:Apparently Seth, you've never been in an auto accident where a dirt poor deadbeat nailed you.
I have.
Seth wrote:but they never, ever pay off when things go sour, they just say "Oops, sorry, we already spent your money on somebody else."
So, how often does this actually happen?
In my case, the insurance company paid about half the cost of repairs. While that's not quite "never" paying off, it's not really what most people think they are getting from insurance, either.

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Robert_S » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:19 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Robert_S wrote:Apparently Seth, you've never been in an auto accident where a dirt poor deadbeat nailed you.
I have.
Seth wrote:but they never, ever pay off when things go sour, they just say "Oops, sorry, we already spent your money on somebody else."
So, how often does this actually happen?
In my case, the insurance company paid about half the cost of repairs. While that's not quite "never" paying off, it's not really what most people think they are getting from insurance, either.
Your insurance or the other person's?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Warren Dew » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:59 am

Robert_S wrote:Your insurance or the other person's?
My insurance. The other person was an uninsured illegal alien.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Animavore, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 26 guests