Finally, a politician tells it like it is about the Vatican

[JimC]

I wonder if the Vatican realises what they are seeing? Their days of political power are evaporating steadily...

I suspect they will cling to the vestiges of their prestige as a "nation state" for as long as they can, even when it is in shreds. The recent examples in Belgium of police raids on the offices of the church were also a significant milestone on the path to ruin for the catholic church as an unquestioned and feared authority...

[klr]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 01818.html

"Kenny likened to Hitler in Mass leaflet"

TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has been likened to Adolf Hitler in a newsletter distributed to Massgoers in a Co Louth parish, following his criticism of the Vatican.

The newsletter, which was in the Church of St Columcille in Togher on Sunday, carried an article about Mr Kenny’s Dáil speech of last week under the headline: “Heil Herr Kenny”.

Referring to Mr Kenny’s criticisms of the Vatican’s handling of clerical sex abuse, the article stated: “The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler”.

Parish priest of Togher Fr Thomas Daly was not available yesterday to comment on the article.

One local man said: “Everybody in the area is talking about it. It is a bit much comparing the leader of Ireland to Hitler – the article went too far.”

The newsletter article stated: “Perhaps he [Enda Kenny] might also keep in mind that the profile of Knock was hugely raised by the visit of a former Pope [John Paul II] to the shrine in 1979.

“If history teaches us one lesson, it must surely be a call to be careful about the canonisation of political leaders.

“Even Hitler had to face that reality. A cautionary tale.”

In the special Dáil debate on the Cloyne report, Mr Kenny said the report exposed an attempt by the Holy See to frustrate an inquiry into abuse just three years ago.

The Togher parish bulletin also referred to the positive response to the Taoiseach’s comments. “His Dáil speech was greeted with shouts of jubilation by almost every journalist and TV pundit in the country.

“Is this the new Ireland? Is this the fulfilment of the dreams of the founding fathers? ‘No Pope here’. Is this the way forward for a new and better Ireland?”

Do we have a smiley for "own goal"?

[klr]

On a more serious note, this is a devastating piece about just why Irish people are entitled to be so pissed off with both the Irish Church hierarchy and the Vatican:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 95730.html

Why is Vatican so miffed at reaction to Cloyne report?

PATSY McGARRY

OPINION : SO, ROME is miffed at “excessive reactions” in Ireland following publication of the Cloyne report. This State has spent millions unearthing what has been available to Rome all along. In October 2005, there was the Ferns report, costs to date: €2.3 million.

In May 2009, the Ryan report, estimated costs to date: at least €126 million. In November 2009, the Dublin report: costs to date €3.6 million. In July 2011, the Cloyne report: costs to date €1.9 million. Total costs so far of the four statutory inquiries? €133.8 million, with more to come.

None of this would have been necessary had the Catholic Church here and in Rome co-operated fully in establishing the truth. Instead, those that could be were dragged, kicking and screaming, into disclosing what they desperately wanted to keep hidden. So, in Ferns, abuse files on five further priests which should have been presented to the inquiry remained unavailable until an accidental discovery in the summer of 2005 – when the Ferns draft report was already completed. A “regrettable error on the part of the diocese . . .” said apostolic administrator to Ferns diocese, canon lawyer, barrister-at-law and Dublin auxiliary bishop Eamon Walsh. Four years later, Rome declined his resignation.

On May 15th, 2009, five days before the Ryan report was published, in a letter to the redress board, the Christian Brothers said the congregation “totally rejects any allegations of systemic abuse . . . or that boys were inadequately fed or clothed . . . and vehemently repudiates all unsubstantiated allegations of sexual abuse . . .” When that letter was published in this newspaper on June 3rd, 2009, a Christian Brothers statement “reflected their shame that as recently as five days prior to publication of the [Ryan] report their responses were still shamefully inadequate and hurtful”.

In January 2008, the former archbishop of Dublin Cardinal Desmond Connell went to the High Court to prevent his successor giving documents to the Murphy commission. Later, he withdrew the action.

In 2008, Bishop John Magee of Cloyne and Msgr Denis O’Callaghan lied to the church’s child protection watchdog about abuse there.

This formidable desire to hide the truth on the part of senior clergy in Ireland by lies, damn lies and mental reservation was not rooted in any peculiar aversion on their part. It rested entirely on what they understood was required of them by Rome.

Yet in his March 2010 pastoral letter to Irish Catholics, Pope Benedict XVI told the bishops that “some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously”, when it came to child protection. Not a word about Rome’s role in any of this.

Not a word about Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos who was responsible for the 1997 letter to the Irish bishops dismissing their 1996 Framework Document as “merely a study document”. Which letter, the Cloyne report said, “gave comfort and support” to those who “dissented from the stated official Irish church policy” on child protection.

In 1999, when the Irish bishops were visiting Rome they were reminded by a Vatican official they were “bishops first, not policemen” when it came to reporting clerical child sex abuse.

But apologists for Rome insist all changed in May 2001 when then prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent two letters to every Catholic bishop in the world. In Latin. One insisted that both be kept secret. The other directed that all clerical child sex abuse allegations “with a semblance of truth” be sent to the congregation and it would decide whether they be dealt with at diocesan or Vatican level.

Yet, as current chancellor of Dublin’s archdiocese Msgr John Dolan told the Murphy commission, this policy “was subsequently modified as Rome was unable to deal with the vast numbers of referrals”.

The Cloyne report continues: “The position now, he [Msgr Dolan] said, is that all cases brought to the attention of the archdiocese before April 2001 and which were outside prescription . . . were not going to be dealt with by the CDF. It was up to the bishop to apply disciplinary measures to the management of those priests.”

In effect, the Irish bishops were back where they were before 2001. As Murphy reported: “Victims have expressed disappointment that neither the Framework Document nor its successor, Our Children, Our Church (2005), received recognition from Rome, thus leaving both documents without legal status under canon law.”

This, Murphy found, “was in direct contrast to the approach adopted by the Holy See to the request of the American Conference of Bishops”. The truth is Rome tied the hands of those Irish bishops and religious superiors who wanted to address the abuse issue properly.

Yet, Rome did not even acknowledge correspondence from the Murphy commission in September 2006. Instead it complained the commission did not use proper channels. So, in February 2007, the Murphy commission wrote to then papal nuncio to Ireland Archbishop Giuseppe Lazzarotto requesting he forward “all documents in his possession relevant to the commission”. He did not reply.

So, in early 2009, it wrote to current nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, (in situ since April 2008), enclosing a draft of its report for comment. He did not reply.

The nunciature in Dublin has been the conduit for truthful clerical child abuse reports to Rome, while Archbishop Leanza was personally involved in talks which led to Bishop Magee standing aside at Cloyne in February 2009. So, the Murphy commission asked him to “submit to it any information which you have about the matters under investigation”. He felt “unable to assist” it “in this matter”.

[Geoff]

I knew quite a bit about the background, but to see it all laid out like that is scary!

Especially this bit:

...The other directed that all clerical child sex abuse allegations “with a semblance of truth” be sent to the congregation and it would decide whether they be dealt with at diocesan or Vatican level.

Yet, as current chancellor of Dublin’s archdiocese Msgr John Dolan told the Murphy commission, this policy “was subsequently modified as Rome was unable to deal with the vast numbers of referrals”.

Shared on fb.

[Cormac]

On a more serious note, this is a devastating piece about just why Irish people are entitled to be so pissed off with both the Irish Church hierarchy and the Vatican:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 95730.html

Why is Vatican so miffed at reaction to Cloyne report?

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

PATSY McGARRY

OPINION : SO, ROME is miffed at “excessive reactions” in Ireland following publication of the Cloyne report. This State has spent millions unearthing what has been available to Rome all along. In October 2005, there was the Ferns report, costs to date: €2.3 million.

In May 2009, the Ryan report, estimated costs to date: at least €126 million. In November 2009, the Dublin report: costs to date €3.6 million. In July 2011, the Cloyne report: costs to date €1.9 million. Total costs so far of the four statutory inquiries? €133.8 million, with more to come.

None of this would have been necessary had the Catholic Church here and in Rome co-operated fully in establishing the truth. Instead, those that could be were dragged, kicking and screaming, into disclosing what they desperately wanted to keep hidden. So, in Ferns, abuse files on five further priests which should have been presented to the inquiry remained unavailable until an accidental discovery in the summer of 2005 – when the Ferns draft report was already completed. A “regrettable error on the part of the diocese . . .” said apostolic administrator to Ferns diocese, canon lawyer, barrister-at-law and Dublin auxiliary bishop Eamon Walsh. Four years later, Rome declined his resignation.

On May 15th, 2009, five days before the Ryan report was published, in a letter to the redress board, the Christian Brothers said the congregation “totally rejects any allegations of systemic abuse . . . or that boys were inadequately fed or clothed . . . and vehemently repudiates all unsubstantiated allegations of sexual abuse . . .” When that letter was published in this newspaper on June 3rd, 2009, a Christian Brothers statement “reflected their shame that as recently as five days prior to publication of the [Ryan] report their responses were still shamefully inadequate and hurtful”.

In January 2008, the former archbishop of Dublin Cardinal Desmond Connell went to the High Court to prevent his successor giving documents to the Murphy commission. Later, he withdrew the action.

In 2008, Bishop John Magee of Cloyne and Msgr Denis O’Callaghan lied to the church’s child protection watchdog about abuse there.

This formidable desire to hide the truth on the part of senior clergy in Ireland by lies, damn lies and mental reservation was not rooted in any peculiar aversion on their part. It rested entirely on what they understood was required of them by Rome.

Yet in his March 2010 pastoral letter to Irish Catholics, Pope Benedict XVI told the bishops that “some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously”, when it came to child protection. Not a word about Rome’s role in any of this.

Not a word about Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos who was responsible for the 1997 letter to the Irish bishops dismissing their 1996 Framework Document as “merely a study document”. Which letter, the Cloyne report said, “gave comfort and support” to those who “dissented from the stated official Irish church policy” on child protection.

In 1999, when the Irish bishops were visiting Rome they were reminded by a Vatican official they were “bishops first, not policemen” when it came to reporting clerical child sex abuse.

But apologists for Rome insist all changed in May 2001 when then prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent two letters to every Catholic bishop in the world. In Latin. One insisted that both be kept secret. The other directed that all clerical child sex abuse allegations “with a semblance of truth” be sent to the congregation and it would decide whether they be dealt with at diocesan or Vatican level.

Yet, as current chancellor of Dublin’s archdiocese Msgr John Dolan told the Murphy commission, this policy “was subsequently modified as Rome was unable to deal with the vast numbers of referrals”.

The Cloyne report continues: “The position now, he [Msgr Dolan] said, is that all cases brought to the attention of the archdiocese before April 2001 and which were outside prescription . . . were not going to be dealt with by the CDF. It was up to the bishop to apply disciplinary measures to the management of those priests.”

In effect, the Irish bishops were back where they were before 2001. As Murphy reported: “Victims have expressed disappointment that neither the Framework Document nor its successor, Our Children, Our Church (2005), received recognition from Rome, thus leaving both documents without legal status under canon law.”

This, Murphy found, “was in direct contrast to the approach adopted by the Holy See to the request of the American Conference of Bishops”. The truth is Rome tied the hands of those Irish bishops and religious superiors who wanted to address the abuse issue properly.

Yet, Rome did not even acknowledge correspondence from the Murphy commission in September 2006. Instead it complained the commission did not use proper channels. So, in February 2007, the Murphy commission wrote to then papal nuncio to Ireland Archbishop Giuseppe Lazzarotto requesting he forward “all documents in his possession relevant to the commission”. He did not reply.

So, in early 2009, it wrote to current nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, (in situ since April 2008), enclosing a draft of its report for comment. He did not reply.

The nunciature in Dublin has been the conduit for truthful clerical child abuse reports to Rome, while Archbishop Leanza was personally involved in talks which led to Bishop Magee standing aside at Cloyne in February 2009. So, the Murphy commission asked him to “submit to it any information which you have about the matters under investigation”. He felt “unable to assist” it “in this matter”.

Nice Post KLR.

It should also be noted that Ratzinger has not once apologised for the wrongs committed by him or by the church.

He has repeatedly apologised for the crimes committed by the paedophiles in the church. He has also completely repudiated these paedophiles. So what these apologies amount to is a statement of regret for crimes committed by someone else.

In Catholic doctrine, the first requirement for absolution is remorse for the wrong you have committed, and then to confess it. If the wrong was a crime, then one is also obliged to face the penalties under temporal law.

Ratzinger has done none of these. Surely, by Catholic doctrine, he has put himself outside God's grace. From his own statements about Catholic dogma, this means that he has automatically excommunicated himself.

The man is a mendacious and inveterate bullshit spinner.

[Animavore]

Godwin strikes
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... risis.html

[charlou]

Just found this ... He doesn't pull any punches - what a great speech!


Why's it tucked away in our lounge, though?

[Ronja]

Now I am angry again:

Vatican rejects cover-up claims over Cloyne report

The Vatican has rejected claims by Irish PM Enda Kenny that it sabotaged efforts by Irish bishops to report child-molesting priests to police.

It follows the damning Cloyne Report that showed how allegations of clerical sex-abuse in Cork had been covered up.

In a speech to parliament in July, Mr Kenny accused the Church of putting its reputation ahead of abuse victims.

The Vatican said it was "sorry and ashamed" over the scandal but said his claims were "unfounded".

"The Holy See is deeply concerned at the findings of the commission of inquiry concerning grave failures in the ecclesiastical governance of the diocese of Cloyne," said the Vatican, in a detailed response to the allegations.

"The Holy See... in no way hampered or sought to interfere in any inquiry into cases of child sex abuse in the Diocese of Cloyne."

"Furthermore, at no stage did the Holy See seek to interfere with Irish civil law or impede the civil authority in the exercise of its duties."

Disgusting.

[Hermit]

Now I am angry again:

Vatican rejects cover-up claims over Cloyne report

The Vatican has rejected claims by Irish PM Enda Kenny that it sabotaged efforts by Irish bishops to report child-molesting priests to police.

It follows the damning Cloyne Report that showed how allegations of clerical sex-abuse in Cork had been covered up.

In a speech to parliament in July, Mr Kenny accused the Church of putting its reputation ahead of abuse victims.

The Vatican said it was "sorry and ashamed" over the scandal but said his claims were "unfounded".

"The Holy See is deeply concerned at the findings of the commission of inquiry concerning grave failures in the ecclesiastical governance of the diocese of Cloyne," said the Vatican, in a detailed response to the allegations.

"The Holy See... in no way hampered or sought to interfere in any inquiry into cases of child sex abuse in the Diocese of Cloyne."

"Furthermore, at no stage did the Holy See seek to interfere with Irish civil law or impede the civil authority in the exercise of its duties."

Disgusting.

Quite flies in the face of what the article quoted by klr found too, doesn't it?

[klr]

If in deep trouble, just lie brazenly ... "The big lie is the one they all believe"

Looks like old Benny learned a few things during his time in the Hitler Youth

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Shouldn't this be in News?

[Ronja]

Shouldn't this be in News?

Cormac started this thread in the Lounge, which is bot+guest free, and as per (yet another) discussion about principles recently, we do not move threads out into the open unless everyone who has contributed to that thread explicitly says that the move is OK. Which in practice means that if nobody realizes that they should ask for such an OK when the thread is still short, that thread will stay in the bot+guest free area forever.

Well, that's how I currently understand it, anyway.

[Animavore]

From Michael Nugent (Atheist Ireland).

The most significant sentence in the Vatican’s response to the Irish Government about the Cloyne Report comes on the second-last page, just before the concluding remarks. It says: “From the foregoing considerations, it should be clear that the Holy See expects the Irish Bishops to cooperate with the civil authorities, to implement fully the norms of canon law and to ensure the full and impartial application of the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland.”

This sounds reasonable on the face of it. But it conceals a vital distinction that the Catholic Church has already used to mislead people in Ireland on the same issue. Look again carefully at the wording: the Bishops should implement “fully” the norms of canon law, and ensure the “full and impartial” application of the Church’s child safety norms. Yet when it comes to cooperating with the civil authorities, as opposed to the internal rules of the Church, the important word “fully” is missing.

This missing word “fully” is the exact formulation that the Dublin Archdiocese used in 1997 to mislead people about its response to the sexual abuse of Marie Collins. When the priest who had abused Collins was convicted, the Archdiocese issued a press statement claiming that it had cooperated with police in relation to her complaint. Collins was upset by this and told her friend Father James Norman. Father Norman told police that he had asked the Archdiocese about the statement and the explanation he received was that “we never said we cooperated ‘fully’, placing emphasis on the word ‘fully’.”

The Catholic Church calls this linguistic trick ‘mental reservation.’ As Cardinal Desmond Connell explained in 2009, “there may be circumstances in which you can use an ambiguous expression realising that the person who you are talking to will accept an untrue version of whatever it may be.” In some circumstances, of course, this may well be true. But not in the circumstance of responding to the rape and torture of children. Now we have the Vatican using the same formulation to create the impression that it is cooperating fully with the civil authorities, while leaving open the defence that it never said ‘fully’.

Cont. http://www.michaelnugent.com/2011/09/05 ... overnment/

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Shouldn't this be in News?

Cormac started this thread in the Lounge, which is bot+guest free, and as per (yet another) discussion about principles recently, we do not move threads out into the open unless everyone who has contributed to that thread explicitly says that the move is OK. Which in practice means that if nobody realizes that they should ask for such an OK when the thread is still short, that thread will stay in the bot+guest free area forever.

Well, that's how I currently understand it, anyway.

Fair 'nuff. Perhaps an earlier move suggestion would be a good idea in the future. (Thinking out loud, so to speak.)

[Cormac]

Shouldn't this be in News?

Hi Gawd,

I'm happy for this to be moved into "News", if some kind Rat would help.