Shame

[hadespussercats]

I think that shame is a perfectly natural emotion that (like other emotions) can be hijacked by conditioning.

Feeling shame because you have hurt another human being is natural (unless you are a psychopath) but feeling shame for nakedness, or wanking, or sex, or any of a plethora of sexual 'deviations' is simply the result of conditioning.

Similarly, feeling hatred is natural, given adequate reason, but feeling hatred for an entire race based upon what you have been taught to believe as a child is simply conditioning.

Take your statement and replace shame with remorse (in the places were it's not an artificiality like "nakedness"). It still works and it's not an externally sourced emotion.

I think floppit was on to something when she talked about shame in the context of humans as intrinsically social animals. What's external and what's internal are fluid-- we incorporate ideas of others into our senses of self. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I also like charlou's point about a sort of matrix of negative emotions around certain events-- different emotional ingredients at different intensities, depending on the personality involved.

[hadespussercats]

remorse is not spontaneous .. but then .. none of the other feelings raised are either.


empathy ... and how that impacts on this ... and vice versa, actually ... I have some thoughts on that. Will maybe post them later.

Empathy... isn't that taught? My understanding is that children have to reach a certain developmental stage to understand empathy.

[hadespussercats]

Zilla - you do seem to be defining shame as something to do with nakedness, bodies, sex? I could waggle me luv muffin to the entire planet and still feel my chip shop shame!

+1 !

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Zilla - you do seem to be defining shame as something to do with nakedness, bodies, sex? I could waggle me luv muffin to the entire planet and still feel my chip shop shame!

+1 !

This requires pix from both of you.

[hadespussercats]

So we shouldn't be ashamed of showing our genitalia to anyone. But showing our genitalia means that we have no shame. I certainly feel no shame in exposing my naked body but I have shame about other things. Things that I am, understandably, too ashamed to repeat here!

The question should be why are you ashamed of those things. Because someone told you to be, directly or indirectly? Or because you're sorry you did them, which is better called being remorseful. BTW, being remorseful over things you shouldn't be is just as bad as being ashamed that you are a mammal and have the equipment to prove it.

If it were only remorse, he wouldn't feel ashamed to post about it, would he? He'd just write that he felt bad about doing such and such, but wouldn't feel like he was revealing something shameful by listing the actions he regretted.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So we shouldn't be ashamed of showing our genitalia to anyone. But showing our genitalia means that we have no shame. I certainly feel no shame in exposing my naked body but I have shame about other things. Things that I am, understandably, too ashamed to repeat here!

The question should be why are you ashamed of those things. Because someone told you to be, directly or indirectly? Or because you're sorry you did them, which is better called being remorseful. BTW, being remorseful over things you shouldn't be is just as bad as being ashamed that you are a mammal and have the equipment to prove it.

If it were only remorse, he wouldn't feel ashamed to post about it, would he? He'd just write that he felt bad about doing such and such, but wouldn't feel like he was revealing something shameful by listing the actions he regretted.

We don't agree on shame here, I see. People use the word loosely, including me I guess. I'm going to have to think about how to make myself clearer and get back to you.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

remorse is not spontaneous .. but then .. none of the other feelings raised are either.


empathy ... and how that impacts on this ... and vice versa, actually ... I have some thoughts on that. Will maybe post them later.

Empathy... isn't that taught? My understanding is that children have to reach a certain developmental stage to understand empathy.

Just because a child needs to reach a certain age before they show empathy, doesn't infer that it is taught. The brain does not finish growing until the late teens and development of different cognitive functions happens at different times and at different rates in individuals. Empathy starts to develop during the toddler stage but is not complete until adulthood (from what I just read in a few googled links.)

[hadespussercats]

remorse is not spontaneous .. but then .. none of the other feelings raised are either.


empathy ... and how that impacts on this ... and vice versa, actually ... I have some thoughts on that. Will maybe post them later.

Empathy... isn't that taught? My understanding is that children have to reach a certain developmental stage to understand empathy.

Just because a child needs to reach a certain age before they show empathy, doesn't infer that it is taught. The brain does not finish growing until the late teens and development of different cognitive functions happens at different times and at different rates in individuals. Empathy starts to develop during the toddler stage but is not complete until adulthood (from what I just read in a few googled links.)

How would we know what's taught and what isn't? Most toddlers need to be told that hands aren't for hitting, and that hair-pulling hurts...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

remorse is not spontaneous .. but then .. none of the other feelings raised are either.


empathy ... and how that impacts on this ... and vice versa, actually ... I have some thoughts on that. Will maybe post them later.

Empathy... isn't that taught? My understanding is that children have to reach a certain developmental stage to understand empathy.

Just because a child needs to reach a certain age before they show empathy, doesn't infer that it is taught. The brain does not finish growing until the late teens and development of different cognitive functions happens at different times and at different rates in individuals. Empathy starts to develop during the toddler stage but is not complete until adulthood (from what I just read in a few googled links.)

How would we know what's taught and what isn't? Most toddlers need to be told that hands aren't for hitting, and that hair-pulling hurts...

Of course - because most toddlers only have a rudimentary sense of empathy. They simply don't realise that they are hurting another person. In some cases, where the toddler is from a very cottonwool homelife, they simply don't appreciate that hairpulling hurts at all because they have never experienced it personally! But still, somewhere between 2 and 4, children begin to sense the hurt of others (and also the joy, anger, frustration, etc.)

A little parental guidance merely helps to reinforce their budding empathy.

[Hermit]

the distinction I was taught was that guilt is something you feel about bad things you've done, shame is feeling bad about who you are

I feel ashamed about some things I have done and guilty about nothing.

[Robert_S]

Shame is, variously, an affect, emotion, cognition, state, or condition. The roots of the word shame are thought to derive from an older word meaning to cover; as such, covering oneself, literally or figuratively, is a natural expression of shame.

My bold.

The covering part really helps illustrate the feeling. The issue is to be kept under wraps from others, possibly from the self.

Seems like a great way for deep seated psychological shit to get lodged into the brain.

[Ronja]

... most toddlers only have a rudimentary sense of empathy. They simply don't realise that they are hurting another person. In some cases, where the toddler is from a very cottonwool homelife, they simply don't appreciate that hairpulling hurts at all because they have never experienced it personally! But still, somewhere between 2 and 4, children begin to sense the hurt of others (and also the joy, anger, frustration, etc.)

A little parental guidance merely helps to reinforce their budding empathy.

FWIW

IME kids seem to differ in how strong/early their tendency for empathy is: Elder Daughter would take actions at age 6 that can only be described as starting from a (usually correct) silent observation of "you look like you need a hug". Younger Daughter, now 10, also wants to make people happy - when she is in the mood for making someone happy and such an idea has occurred to her. YD does not actively observe other people even half as much as ED. Yet neither of them is selfish in a bad way IMO - it's just that the manner in which they "naturally" are tuned into and interested of people around them is different. If someone is hurt or upset, they will both do whatever they can to help, YD being even faster to notice an emergency and to drop what she was doing before.

As toddlers (2-3 years of age) they both needed to be told, over and over again, that hitting hurts and is not allowed.. Sometimes just stopping the hand was enough, sometimes we needed to take away some toy that was used for hitting, and sometimes they were carried away from a playmate, depending on how fast they would stop. And they both went through a phase where they would clearly check if a grownup was watching and then hit another kid (typically in the sandbox, so small spades were often involved) and then check how the grownup would react. As if they were testing "Is that really how this is supposed to work?" This phase made me nervous especially the first time around, but neither of them has showed any violent tendencies since.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Shame is, variously, an affect, emotion, cognition, state, or condition. The roots of the word shame are thought to derive from an older word meaning to cover; as such, covering oneself, literally or figuratively, is a natural expression of shame.

My bold.

The covering part really helps illustrate the feeling. The issue is to be kept under wraps from others, possibly from the self.

Seems like a great way for deep seated psychological shit to get lodged into the brain.

Interestingly the farther one gets from The People of the Book, the less body shame one tends to see.

"Shame is, variously, an affect, emotion, cognition, state, or condition. " Yep, it means whatever we want it to mean at the time. To me this means it has no real definition.

[hadespussercats]

This might be a little Suzy Creamcheese, but it's a nice talk about shame and vulnerability:

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/lang/eng//id/1042

[Cormac]

Whenever I get an idea like that in my head, I just chant "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda". This is to exorcise that demon of "What would I have done, what could I have done, what should I have done".

You have thinks for Munch you wouldn't have had, and you gave the other lady a warm glow I think, knowing that she helped another person. And there's no repercussion from this, except your feelings of embarrassment at being currently in hard times. (Like, who isn't these days?) So bin that blue mood, don't let it eat you up.

Cheers - and I agree. It had more of an impact in making me muse shame than actively feel it.

I got hand-me downs every year of school until David graduated and left for the Air Force. It was a running joke at my school, "I see what Larry's wearing next year!" Never bothered me because the cretins that told the jokes had no clue what my home was like.

I was in hand-me-downs until the year I grew taller than my older brother, which I think was in my early-to-mid teenage years. No harm at all.