Shame

[floppit]

In the last 3 years I've gone from feeling happily married to the man I loved (and who also brought in a good income), on maternity leave from a semi professional job, home owner with unaffordable mortgage, and a mountain of pride in my own loving home - I've gone from that to a life which seems scripted by Ken Loach! A reminder of my childhood, another life.

On sunday another car booter had been watching us (Munch and me) doing our stall, she was a little down the way and we hadn't talked but when I went for a wander after packing up she asked about the day I had and talked about her own. The upshot of the conversation was her offering me much of her unsold stuff. I think the speed I shot off at to get my empty bags, my enthusiastic 'thank you's, something made her pack my bags really full even while people were stood looking through some clothes (buyers). I talked about it being hard to buy to sell, that I'd brought half a dozen Fat Face/White Stuff clothes since I'd started and only sold them that day for £2 each, even though they were £40 new (from that other life). I was truly grateful but the scene of me helping to stuff those bags stuck with me, my awareness that even the stained babygrows are worth £3 for 10 kilo and I know that.

I don't know if I'm ashamed, there's bog all pride in it, the pride has gone but I'm not sure if what's replaced it is shame or just an awareness that this is another life and it still has to be lived with humour despite knowing there's plenty of people who'd see it as wrong. I car boot to make money without losing benefits, I work part time not full time for time with Munch - both those things people talk about as bad, maybe they are. It doesn't feel like theft because I know we'll need and have to take less if I keep the house, the rest is just very basic maths.

Tangent over - what do folk think about shame, self induced?, induced by others?, a moral deterrent?, does it have a place?

It think it's easy to see shame as wholly bad but I don't, it has some part in integrity, it exists regardless in our range of emotions, I believe (but am too lazy to look up) it's even been glimpsed in animals. I can't help but feel that to some extent it has a vital part to play in group culture, not just the negatives of group culture either.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Whenever I get an idea like that in my head, I just chant "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda". This is to exorcise that demon of "What would I have done, what could I have done, what should I have done".

You have thinks for Munch you wouldn't have had, and you gave the other lady a warm glow I think, knowing that she helped another person. And there's no repercussion from this, except your feelings of embarrassment at being currently in hard times. (Like, who isn't these days?) So bin that blue mood, don't let it eat you up.

[floppit]

Whenever I get an idea like that in my head, I just chant "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda". This is to exorcise that demon of "What would I have done, what could I have done, what should I have done".

You have thinks for Munch you wouldn't have had, and you gave the other lady a warm glow I think, knowing that she helped another person. And there's no repercussion from this, except your feelings of embarrassment at being currently in hard times. (Like, who isn't these days?) So bin that blue mood, don't let it eat you up.

Cheers - and I agree. It had more of an impact in making me muse shame than actively feel it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Whenever I get an idea like that in my head, I just chant "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda". This is to exorcise that demon of "What would I have done, what could I have done, what should I have done".

You have thinks for Munch you wouldn't have had, and you gave the other lady a warm glow I think, knowing that she helped another person. And there's no repercussion from this, except your feelings of embarrassment at being currently in hard times. (Like, who isn't these days?) So bin that blue mood, don't let it eat you up.

Cheers - and I agree. It had more of an impact in making me muse shame than actively feel it.

I got hand-me downs every year of school until David graduated and left for the Air Force. It was a running joke at my school, "I see what Larry's wearing next year!" Never bothered me because the cretins that told the jokes had no clue what my home was like.

[Rum]

You should feel pride rather than shame Floppit for the things you had to do and did a few months ago to change your life. People here know how brave you were to do some of that stuff. The fact that you are financially much worse off (I assume) and any other consequences only confirm your courageousness.

In the end you did what you had to and didn't have much choice really.

Pride - you deserve to feel it!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You should feel pride rather than shame Floppit for the things you had to do and did a few months ago to change your life. People here know how brave you were to do some of that stuff. The fact that you are financially much worse off (I assume) and any other consequences only confirm your courageousness.

In the end you did what you had to and didn't have much choice really.

Pride - you deserve to feel it!

Munch won't know or remember much of what you have/had to do, but your grandkids will get to hear the stories when she dumps them on you for an evening of "me time".

[Robert_S]

What Rum and Zilla said.

It ain't about the house or the goodies therein or the how much money gotten how, it's about the love.

[floppit]

Honestly, it made me think more about the role of shame, that it probably has a place rather than being something seen as globally negative. I think part of that is because the pictures I associate with misplaced shame, like valuing things other folk are just throwing away (not saying the lady who gave me a bunch of clothes was just chucking them, more that no-one had bought them, that few would cash in rags.

I've never doubted my own decisions were the right ones but at the same time I suppose they highlighted things I had been proud of and that made me think whether unconsciously I had devalued people struggling more - it certainly wasn't conscious. I think I might have felt some pity but actually I don't think my life now would warrant it because it is very lively.

When something happens that makes me think, gives me a kick I start thinking about it very ego-centrically, only because it's easier to have more detail but at the same time I think few experiences are unique and that's where I wonder about how emotions like shame and pride weave into more of a group fabric.

I think it rocks that people are so supportive here (thanks Rum too!:) ) but I'd love to know what other people think about shame, whether it has a place at all.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm a non-starter on shame, I've never felt that emotion. Anger at the situation, yes, but not shame. I chased a thief down the street naked once, catching him and kicking his ass at an intersection. Then I took his pants and put them on and walked back to the hotel.

[Audley Strange]

@Floppit

I think you hit the nail on the head, shame seems to be a reaction to perceiving one's own behaviour as a betrayal of one's own integrity. However in that respect I'd say your integrity is probably intact, unless you are a rabid Daily Mail "Dole Scum and Single Mothers killed Diana" type ranter, which I see no reason to think.

[Rum]

I think you may be stretching the definition of the word 'shame' but if you want an obvious answer for me the only reason for feeling shame would be the betrayal of deeply held values.

[hadespussercats]

I think shame has its uses. People try to act well so they can avoid feeling it. The trouble with shame is that it so easily seeps across boundaries, from appropriate incentive to decent behavior to a broad brush of an emotion that can inspire feelings of worthlessness. And it can be used as a weapon-- by others, or self-inflicted (internalized others?)

It occurs to me that decent is a word that implies the existence of shame-- contrast with indecent, which could be a synonym for shameful. Can you be a decent human being if shame doesn't exist?

[Robert_S]

I think shame has its uses. People try to act well so they can avoid feeling it. The trouble with shame is that it so easily seeps across boundaries, from appropriate incentive to decent behavior to a broad brush of an emotion that can inspire feelings of worthlessness. And it can be used as a weapon-- by others, or self-inflicted (internalized others?)

It occurs to me that decent is a word that implies the existence of shame-- contrast with indecent, which could be a synonym for shameful. Can you be a decent human being if shame doesn't exist?

Guilt?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can you be a decent human being if shame doesn't exist?

[rachelbean]

I will type more of my thoughts later, but I'd say that for the most part I think that empathy can do the positive parts of the job of shame or guilt without any of the negativity that goes along with the latter two.