The Coming Collapse of the World Economy

[Atheist-Lite]

We don't live in a capitalist system. This is really just cover for the reality of a chaotic non-adaptive numbers game which reacts to the short-term gratification of human urges. There isn't anyway to restore the culture of vision that existed in the 60s. That is gone. It left on a train and it ain't coming back. The mass of people are deluded cretins compared with the sixties. We are closing in on full scale global economic & social catastrophe by the day not the year. What in the name of blazes is the point of talking about space colonisation when there is no societal, nor political vision for that? People know all about space because they are fed hyper-realistic mirages constantly on their televisions....reality pales in comparison.

[Hermit]

We don't live in a capitalist system.

I do. Granted, it is not purely capitalistic, but the means of production are privately rather than collectively owned.

[Atheist-Lite]

We don't live in a capitalist system.

I do. Granted, it is not purely capitalistic, but the means of production are privately rather than collectively owned.

Owned by a syndicate of shareholders mostly. That's a unusual form of privacy you've got hold of there Seraph.

[Hermit]

We don't live in a capitalist system.

I do. Granted, it is not purely capitalistic, but the means of production are privately rather than collectively owned.

Owned by a syndicate of shareholders mostly. That's a unusual form of privacy you've got hold of there Seraph.

Shares are privately owned parcels of a company. If you own a controlling amount (which may be as little as 20%) of a company, that company is just about as good as private property to you. While shares are offered to the public, the ones owners own are not public property as far as their owners are concerned. I think you need to re-examine your notion of public property.

[Atheist-Lite]

We don't live in a capitalist system.

I do. Granted, it is not purely capitalistic, but the means of production are privately rather than collectively owned.

Owned by a syndicate of shareholders mostly. That's a unusual form of privacy you've got hold of there Seraph.

Shares are privately owned parcels of a company. If you own a controlling amount (which may be as little as 20%) of a company, that company is just about as good as private property to you. While shares are offered to the public, the ones owners own are not public property as far as their owners are concerned. I think you need to re-examine your notion of public property.

I appreciate the inability to question the health of a faltering pony at this altitude.

[Pappa]

I think a judicious blend of capitalism and socialism might go some way toward aemeliorating the destructive aspects inhering capitalism as well as the incapabilities at the core of communism, but what that blend consists of will vary by location and time. There are no hard and fast rules.

That sounds a lot like the direction China are heading (or attempting to).

[Atheist-Lite]

I think a judicious blend of capitalism and socialism might go some way toward aemeliorating the destructive aspects inhering capitalism as well as the incapabilities at the core of communism, but what that blend consists of will vary by location and time. There are no hard and fast rules.

That sounds a lot like the direction China are heading (or attempting to).

The Chinese system works fine if you ignore basic human rights.

[Pappa]

I think a judicious blend of capitalism and socialism might go some way toward aemeliorating the destructive aspects inhering capitalism as well as the incapabilities at the core of communism, but what that blend consists of will vary by location and time. There are no hard and fast rules.

That sounds a lot like the direction China are heading (or attempting to).

The Chinese system works fine if you ignore basic human rights.

Do you think that will eventually change though? As the Chinese become more affluent, will the Government have less need to be so totalitarian? Will they be able to maintain control if the do?

[Hermit]

I appreciate the inability to question the health of a faltering pony at this altitude.

Could anyone translate this for me? Please? English will do.

[Atheist-Lite]

I think a judicious blend of capitalism and socialism might go some way toward aemeliorating the destructive aspects inhering capitalism as well as the incapabilities at the core of communism, but what that blend consists of will vary by location and time. There are no hard and fast rules.

That sounds a lot like the direction China are heading (or attempting to).

The Chinese system works fine if you ignore basic human rights.

Do you think that will eventually change though? As the Chinese become more affluent, will the Government have less need to be so totalitarian? Will they be able to maintain control if the do?

I think they have a housing bubble over there and isn't the 'high unsustainable growth' masking a large numbe of unerlying social problems - not least the socioeconomic disparity between town & country? I don't think there is a path to the higher land with their course, their system....it's full of 'exponentials' just like the American and all the other global socio-economic paradigms at this time. Rising to a fall as a species....the petri dish is full....next extinction?

[JimC]

This is a serious subject here. Can we move beyond post slicing and try to figure what we're gonna do with the situation we face?

Too easy: stop the focus on profits in the short term at the expense of long term damage.

What would that mean, specifically, in terms of what should be done?

The "too easy" bit was very much tongue in cheek.

Unfortunately, corporate culture and structure, as well as the very basis of the capitalist economic system militate against taking a long term view. In particular, the shareholder's baying for maximum possible dividends; The board of directors and the CEO will find themselves out of a job soon enough if they don't deliver. So they will almost invariably go for the easy option: deliver profits at the expense of long term sustainability.

At the same time, I don't see how communism would work. There is nothing like competition to find more efficient ways to produce goods. Without the cutthroat nature of it, we would not have the amazing improvements in computer hardware capabilities, nor the stupendously dropping prices of those components. I think that if the computer industry was owned and operated by a communist system, we'd be using the equivalent of a Trabant instead of a BMW right now. Nothing seems to work as well in this regard as very material incentives and disincentives on a personal level, neither of which are present when you live in an economic system governed by this ma(r)xim: "From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need."

I think a judicious blend of capitalism and socialism might go some way toward aemeliorating the destructive aspects inhering capitalism as well as the incapabilities at the core of communism, but what that blend consists of will vary by location and time. There are no hard and fast rules.

Generally speaking, I agree with this analysis. It may be worth adding that the actions of democratic governments are constrained in a similar way. For shareholders, read voters...

Government by popularity in the polls is analogous to media by sound-bites...

[Santa_Claus]

Western Capitalism itself is a bubble - and like all bubbles it is only a question of when and not if it goes pop (but a run of several hundred years is not in itself a failure).

The problem (the last 4 years) is not about a recession / double dip recession or even a depression (those are just phrases made up long ago) - it's the fact that the West needs to remake how it's Capitalism works into a more sustainable model, don't matter how many zeros goes onto the Sovereign debt - the system is broke.

and included in that is a move away from consumerism as a driver of the economy, and creating long term wealth (instead of simply printing money - which was outsourced to the Banks on an industrial scale over the last 10 years or so. The funny thing is that the present debt end of the crisis could be solved in a week, but no polticial will to do so - easier to all go off the cliff together, and then no one gets blamed for the tough decisions.

Not to say that I am going all Socialist to my mind the answer is simply better Capitalism ...........incuding liberating the stock market from being over taxed, so it's less of a short term casino and more a long term investment (and setting prudent corporate governance rules for list companies to move away from needing to sell the family silver for short term results), and making investment into small private companies attractive for 3rd parties (as well as for folk to simply set up small businesses).