How to get raped - long hair derail.

[nellikin]

Actually, Mistermack, the best advice for women to avoid rape is to avoid men. That tends to work brilliantly. However, segregation from men is about as much fun as abstinence from alcohol. I'll continue to enjoy both, if I may. If men disregard the women's rights to say 'no', well then the alcohol (if involved) isn't to blame but the man. And the original OP wasn't about avoiding rape but about how to act whilst it is occurring. I distinction you may not have perceived.

[Cunt]

I have never understood the 'it's about violence and control, not sex', or the other popular 'it's not about sex, it's about power'. Doesn't mean anything to me. It can be about anything...Generalizing to this extent seems foolish.

There are people who don't believe someone could have been raped, because "who would rape her?"

But elderly women get raped, men get raped, babies get raped. It's not about female sex appeal. I'm not sure what you're getting at, if you think this is generalizing.

I guess I am a literalist, but in many of the rapes I have had learned about, sex happens.

To say that it is about violence, control, power AND sex would make sense, but I really don't understand why they say it isn't about sex.

This may sound a bit flip, but rape without sex would have to be called something else, wouldn't it?

The following sentence may further illustrate my thinking.
(I know a lot of you really like sex, but if your favourite flavour is 'consenting adults', then it isn't about sex for you, it's about consenting adults.)

[hadespussercats]

I have never understood the 'it's about violence and control, not sex', or the other popular 'it's not about sex, it's about power'. Doesn't mean anything to me. It can be about anything...Generalizing to this extent seems foolish.

There are people who don't believe someone could have been raped, because "who would rape her?"

But elderly women get raped, men get raped, babies get raped. It's not about female sex appeal. I'm not sure what you're getting at, if you think this is generalizing.

I guess I am a literalist, but in many of the rapes I have had learned about, sex happens.

To say that it is about violence, control, power AND sex would make sense, but I really don't understand why they say it isn't about sex.

This may sound a bit flip, but rape without sex would have to be called something else, wouldn't it?

The following sentence may further illustrate my thinking.
(I know a lot of you really like sex, but if your favourite flavour is 'consenting adults', then it isn't about sex for you, it's about consenting adults.)

Sure, sex is the weapon of rape.

But the discussion here had been lingering on issues of how women dress, burquas, hair, etc.-- but this is all aside from the point. People get raped no matter how they dress, or how they wear their hair.

Think of Brandon Teena-- the trans-man whose life was the basis for the film "Boys Don't Cry." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena ) He could not have dressed more unlike a seductive woman. But when his biological sex was revealed to be female, he was raped. That wasn't because he dressed sexy. That was a violent way of punishing him for being strange, a way of putting him in his place as a woman.

The issue of how a woman might dress to avoid being raped has more to do with the practicalities of defense and escape than it has anything to do with whether or not she seems sexy. Sexiness is beside the point.

Does this explanation help you understand what I'm getting at?

[Cunt]

I have never understood the 'it's about violence and control, not sex', or the other popular 'it's not about sex, it's about power'. Doesn't mean anything to me. It can be about anything...Generalizing to this extent seems foolish.

There are people who don't believe someone could have been raped, because "who would rape her?"

But elderly women get raped, men get raped, babies get raped. It's not about female sex appeal. I'm not sure what you're getting at, if you think this is generalizing.

I guess I am a literalist, but in many of the rapes I have had learned about, sex happens.

To say that it is about violence, control, power AND sex would make sense, but I really don't understand why they say it isn't about sex.

This may sound a bit flip, but rape without sex would have to be called something else, wouldn't it?

The following sentence may further illustrate my thinking.
(I know a lot of you really like sex, but if your favourite flavour is 'consenting adults', then it isn't about sex for you, it's about consenting adults.)

Sure, sex is the weapon of rape.

But the discussion here had been lingering on issues of how women dress, burquas, hair, etc.-- but this is all aside from the point. People get raped no matter how they dress, or how they wear their hair.

Think of Brandon Teena-- the trans-man whose life was the basis for the film "Boys Don't Cry." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena ) He could not have dressed more unlike a seductive woman. But when his biological sex was revealed to be female, he was raped. That wasn't because he dressed sexy. That was a violent way of punishing him for being strange, a way of putting him in his place as a woman.

The issue of how a woman might dress to avoid being raped has more to do with the practicalities of defense and escape than it has anything to do with whether or not she seems sexy. Sexiness is beside the point.

Does this explanation help you understand what I'm getting at?

What you are getting at, yes, but not the broad generalizations I have heard. I would say that, in EVERY case, it was about sex AND something else. (Not 'sex' as in male/female but sex as in the act)
People get raped through no fault of their own, but what of the grayer areas? At a swingers club, you will be instructed that no means no, maybe means no, I don't know means no...basically, anything except yes means no. This is a great protection for those hedonists, and a great set of manners to use.

I don't think it is working yet among the masses. The lack of clear communication about sex contributes much to the mayhem.

That and I know a woman who told me that she liked anal sex, but only if she was forced. She liked it rough, and never once said yes (but enjoyed it after the fact). Where does she fit in to all this? (and thank fuck I am not single and dealing with that as often anymore)

When she is struggling to get away, is it rape? After, when she is 'coming down' and enjoying herself, is it suddenly not rape again?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The idea that rape is about sex doesn't work for me. If a man is horny it's a lot easier to jerk off than to attack a woman. And rape has none of the attributes of "sex". There is no intimacy, there is no sharing, there is no interaction before, during or after.

[mistermack]

Actually, Mistermack, the best advice for women to avoid rape is to avoid men. That tends to work brilliantly. However, segregation from men is about as much fun as abstinence from alcohol. I'll continue to enjoy both, if I may. If men disregard the women's rights to say 'no', well then the alcohol (if involved) isn't to blame but the man. And the original OP wasn't about avoiding rape but about how to act whilst it is occurring. I distinction you may not have perceived.

Of course, you may enjoy both. It's ok by me. As long as you send me the video.
Yes, of course you can't blame the alcohol, or the woman for getting drunk.
There is only one person to blame for rape, and that is the rapist, and the whether the victim was drunk or not has no mitigation whatsoever.

However, in real life, getting drunk means you are tens, or even hundreds of times more likely to get raped. So don't get drunk is good advice, the best you can get when it comes to rape. As any woman who got raped while drunk would probably tell you.

And it doesn't just increase your chances of getting raped. It decreases your chances of getting a conviction, which is directly relevant to the OP. Partly because really drunk people often can't clearly remember what happened. And also because if someone was obviously really drunk in front of witnesses, then a good lawyer can cast doubt on whether she consented, didn't consent, or could remember whether she said no or not.
It's a gift to the defence, because reasonable doubt is all that they need to establish.

Yes, the original OP was about a suggested website for the best way to successfully survive rape. But this is a derail thread, so anyone who wants to stick faithfully to that line can post on the original.

I think prevention is much better than cure.
We don't have websites with advice on how to act in a car crash.
The best precautions are to avoid accidents, because anything can happen, once it goes out of control.
The same applies to rape. It's a very unpredictable situation, and avoidance is far the most effective strategy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why not prevention AND cure?

[mistermack]

Why not prevention AND cure?

No reason. Prevention is better than cure. It doesn't mean you ignore cure.

And as I pointed out, being sober helps get a conviction, and is sure to help with any other strategy that might be adopted. So there's no reason why sensible precautions shouldn't add value to any cure.

You have to remember that it's not just some bloggers on websites that try to shift some of the blame onto victims. Women often BLAME THEMSELVES, for getting pissed, not being careful etc., and don't report it.

[Hermit]

I think prevention is much better than cure.

So it's back to wearing hijabs, and social separation of the genders that islamic nations are so fond of. See, we can learn something from them after all, including, come to think of it, the prohibition of alcohol consumption for both genders.

[mistermack]

I think prevention is much better than cure.

So it's back to wearing hijabs, and social separation of the genders that islamic nations are so fond of. See, we can learn something from them after all, including, come to think of it, the prohibition of alcohol consumption for both genders.

I don't think that's a good idea. But I don't fancy your idea, of getting pissed out of your brain, and accepting lifts home from people you don't know, and can't even see, and passing out every five minutes.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

There's a lot of talk here about avoiding being raped by a stranger. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of rapes are by man that the women know - in many cases, either their partner, an ex-partner or a male relative/step relative. And, in most of these cases, alcohol use by the victim is not a factor - although alcohol use by the attacker, often is.

[Ronja]

Meta: I'm getting a bit frustrated with the two threads that are basically about the same topic and now both contain both good discussion and some derails. Would someone who has a reliable and fast enough connection to RatZ (i.e. not me ATM) try to sort out if the posts/threads could be rearranged?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You want to merge the derail back into the original thread?

[Ronja]

You want to merge the derail back into the original thread?

...with the actual derail parts plucked out of both and placed in the derail thread, if nobody objects?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You want to merge the derail back into the original thread?

...with the actual derail parts plucked out of both and placed in the derail thread, if nobody objects?

Pity I have a root canal today or I'd be right on that.