Tottenham Riots

[Atheist-Lite]

I certainly can understand that, but I'm at a loss for a solution. You certainly can't increase benefits as people's situations improve. The whole idea of government assistance is that it's supposed to assist those in hard times, and those in hard times are supposed to do what they can to get themselves on their feet. Something is wrong as soon as we have a system where people are foregoing opportunity in order to stay on the dole

But you are making the assumption that there are jobs for these people, we need to accept that plenty of people in society are pretty much surplus from requirement from the day they are born. You either let them starve/riot, kill them or pay them to keep them quiet its completely naive to assume you can just employ them with the right motivation

Makes an awful lot of sense. Disturbing really, another Generation X? Perhaps these troubles we've seen are the tip of the proverbial; more to follow I mean.

society ain't stable. The entire thing can tip up with the right climate. Food inflation/shortages are the best bet to get critical mass on these kinds of riots. Just wait a little while and civil unrest will translate into civil war or even all out revolution. Heading in that direction and the iceberg of a printing money policy - hyperinflation.....?

[Rum]

I certainly can understand that, but I'm at a loss for a solution. You certainly can't increase benefits as people's situations improve. The whole idea of government assistance is that it's supposed to assist those in hard times, and those in hard times are supposed to do what they can to get themselves on their feet. Something is wrong as soon as we have a system where people are foregoing opportunity in order to stay on the dole

But you are making the assumption that there are jobs for these people, we need to accept that plenty of people in society are pretty much surplus from requirement from the day they are born. You either let them starve/riot, kill them or pay them to keep them quiet its completely naive to assume you can just employ them with the right motivation

Makes an awful lot of sense. Disturbing really, another Generation X? Perhaps these troubles we've seen are the tip of the proverbial; more to follow I mean.

society ain't stable. The entire thing can tip up with the right climate. Food inflation/shortages are the best bet to get critical mass on these kinds of riots. Just wait a little while and civil unrest will translate into civil war or even all out revolution. Heading in that direction and the iceberg of a printing money policy - hyperinflation.....?

The cheery chappy strikes again!

[Coito ergo sum]

I certainly can understand that, but I'm at a loss for a solution. You certainly can't increase benefits as people's situations improve. The whole idea of government assistance is that it's supposed to assist those in hard times, and those in hard times are supposed to do what they can to get themselves on their feet. Something is wrong as soon as we have a system where people are foregoing opportunity in order to stay on the dole

But you are making the assumption that there are jobs for these people, we need to accept that plenty of people in society are pretty much surplus from requirement from the day they are born. You either let them starve/riot, kill them or pay them to keep them quiet its completely naive to assume you can just employ them with the right motivation

Well, we had a situation in the 1990s and up through about 2006 where in the US where just about anyone physically and mentally capable of having a job and who wanted one could have one. I will not accept that a physically fit, mentally competent person is "pretty much surplus" and has no ability to be gainfully employed. At a certain point in time, a physically capable, mentally competent adult is responsible for feeding himself. If he doesn't, well, we can't have it as a viable option that people just choose to be wards of the state and live off the labor of other people.

[Warren Dew]

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the U.S., you lose many welfare benefits if you have more than $3000 or so in savings. The upshot is that the system encourages people to spend all their money and avoid saving.

That's the worst thing about US welfare. There are no rewards for getting into a better situation or being responsible. We had a huge number of absent fathers because being around threatened the child and mother's benefits. It isn't a plan, it is an appeasement.

I could live with appeasement, if it didn't include incentives for growing another generation that needed to be appeased.

[MrJonno]

Well, we had a situation in the 1990s and up through about 2006 where in the US where just about anyone physically and mentally capable of having a job and who wanted one could have one. I will not accept that a physically fit, mentally competent person is "pretty much surplus" and has no ability to be gainfully employed. At a certain point in time, a physically capable, mentally competent adult is responsible for feeding himself. If he doesn't, well, we can't have it as a viable option that people just choose to be wards of the state and live off the labor of other people.

Its the mentally competent bit thats the biggie, come live in my area and I will show you people who are not capable of queueing, of being quiet for even 30 seconds. Most can read but can't concentrate long enough to even taken in a single page of a book. I show you people who simple can't speak full sentences without swearing or shouting. They don't have an official mental illness but they are in no way competent to ever work, you simple wouldnt want to work aside them.

Sorry dealing with these people is a containment and/or treatment issue depending on your point of view. Maybe just mayve if you spent £/$100'000 's on them then maybe you might be able to 'cure' a few of them but society doesnt have that sort of money

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, we had a situation in the 1990s and up through about 2006 where in the US where just about anyone physically and mentally capable of having a job and who wanted one could have one. I will not accept that a physically fit, mentally competent person is "pretty much surplus" and has no ability to be gainfully employed. At a certain point in time, a physically capable, mentally competent adult is responsible for feeding himself. If he doesn't, well, we can't have it as a viable option that people just choose to be wards of the state and live off the labor of other people.

Its the mentally competent bit thats the biggie, come live in my area and I will show you people who are not capable of queueing, of being quiet for even 30 seconds. Most can read but can't concentrate long enough to even taken in a single page of a book. I show you people who simple can't speak full sentences without swearing or shouting. They don't have an official mental illness but they are in no way competent to ever work, you simple wouldnt want to work aside them.

Sorry dealing with these people is a containment and/or treatment issue depending on your point of view. Maybe just mayve if you spent £/$100'000 's on them then maybe you might be able to 'cure' a few of them but society doesnt have that sort of money

Well, tough titties. They can perform manual labor, and if they don't want to, they can go fuck themselves.

[MrJonno]

Well, tough titties. They can perform manual labor, and if they don't want to, they can go fuck themselves

What manual labour?, thats kind of the point 50 years ago that is exactly would have happened. These days the only muscle society needs is for violence legal or otherwise

[Thinking Aloud]

What manual labour?

Dunno - there are a lot of potholes in the roads up here, and most councils are facing huge spending cuts...

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, tough titties. They can perform manual labor, and if they don't want to, they can go fuck themselves

What manual labour?, thats kind of the point 50 years ago that is exactly would have happened. These days the only muscle society needs is for violence legal or otherwise

They'll never have a girlfriend.

[Robert_S]

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the U.S., you lose many welfare benefits if you have more than $3000 or so in savings. The upshot is that the system encourages people to spend all their money and avoid saving.

That's the worst thing about US welfare. There are no rewards for getting into a better situation or being responsible. We had a huge number of absent fathers because being around threatened the child and mother's benefits. It isn't a plan, it is an appeasement.

I could live with appeasement, if it didn't include incentives for growing another generation that needed to be appeased.

I can't. It encourages a shitty attitude and a sense of helplessness. If you're down on your luck or need a little help with college or the power bill because things piled up this particular month, that' one thing. Anything longer than two years should be setting off alarm bells.

[Bella Fortuna]

I think the UK needs the New Deal.

[MrJonno]

What manual labour?

Dunno - there are a lot of potholes in the roads up here, and most councils are facing huge spending cuts...

And you don't think you might some skills to actually fill in potholes?, I wouldnt have a clue how to do it lots of complex machinery I believe and people who do this are on an okish wage to use them.

America may be a rural country country where everyone knows DIY but the people we are talking about are city dweller who would see a spanner as nothing more than something to smash a window with

[Coito ergo sum]

I think the UK needs the NudeewDeal.

[MrJonno]

I think the UK needs the New Deal.

Lots of relatively low skilled people expanding a country with a lot of of undeveloped infrastrure simply doesnt apply to the UK in the 21st century

[Ironclad]

Ship them orf to anthrax island.


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