Tottenham Riots

[Rum]

Hmm.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... 8.facebook

UK riots: grammar school girl is accused of theft

Laura Johnson appears as far removed as is possible from the lawless "underclass" said to have been blighting Britain's streets.

There were a lot of people involved and no doubt all sorts. I can imagine a number of people who would not think of smashing a shop window walking past, seeing a Playstaion just sitting there and saying 'why not?' to themselves. One of those in court yesterday was a teaching assistant.

[Coito ergo sum]

I blame an increasingly consumerist and status obsessed culture that has implanted the notion that if you do not have X, Y and Z then you are somehow not worthy.

Add that to a bit of class-ism and or racism in economic situation where it is increasingly difficult to get such things, and you've got a bunch of pissed off kids with fucked values.

From what I have heard on other threads, the system over there doesn't afford a lot of opportunities. I was surprised, for example, to learn on one thread here that it is quite uncommon for people under 18 to have held a job, and it is not at all uncommon for folks who are 19 and 20 to still not have a job. I was educated that G.B. there aren't any opportunities, or hardly any, and that the jobs that are listed are few and far between, already taken, or not serious job advertisements. It seems to me that something must be gumming up the works such that people can't just go do something. When I was a kid in the US, the guy who ran the corner store would hire a kid in a heartbeat and pay a low minimum wage to have the kid do miscellaneous, unskilled tasks. It was always a kid's job to wheel boxes of stuff into the store, stock shelves, break up boxes, price the merchandise, etc. That was never a job for an adult, but it was a great job for any number of high school kids to come in part time and make a few bucks, and in the process learn how to work, and what it means to hold a job. From what I understand, and from what I've been told, in G.B. those menial jobs are being vied for by adults.

Also, maybe the barriers to entry are too high? Are employers resistant to hire due to the level of "protections" for employees and the associate costs on top of salary? I mean - I know even where I am now, hiring an employee is a big decision - it's not just the salary - you pretty much have to add 50 cents on the dollar for benefits and payroll taxes, and then there is the resistance to want to let someone go. If I had, on top of that, a requirement to pay someone for being off work for months at a time, the requirement to pay them to take vacations for a month, and other such things, I would be even less likely to hire a new employee. And, then if I can't just make a decision to fire that person without worrying about a claim that I didn't have "just cause" to get rid of an unneeded employee, that would , of course, make me even more reticent to hire.

And, maybe the barriers to entry for a person starting their own business are too high? Can these "youths" just up and start their own cleaning business, or are there large permit fees, red tape and and other twists and turns that keep people from being able to bootstrap themselves into a sole proprietorship or partnership?

It seems to me, that maybe the system over there works in some ways to keep people down and limit their opportunities. I may be wrong, as I don't live there and have little experience to back up my suggestions. But, I do remember what people posted about the job situation in England, and what they told me of the economy there.

[Bella Fortuna]

Hmm.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... 8.facebook

UK riots: grammar school girl is accused of theft

Laura Johnson appears as far removed as is possible from the lawless "underclass" said to have been blighting Britain's streets.

There were a lot of people involved and no doubt all sorts. I can imagine a number of people who would not think of smashing a shop window walking past, seeing a Playstaion just sitting there and saying 'why not?' to themselves. One of those in court yesterday was a teaching assistant.

Yep, I think the reality will prove that all sorts, of every colour spectrum and a variety of socioeconomic strata, gave in to their baser desires. All should be ashamed.

[Atheist-Lite]

I blame an increasingly consumerist and status obsessed culture that has implanted the notion that if you do not have X, Y and Z then you are somehow not worthy.

Add that to a bit of class-ism and or racism in economic situation where it is increasingly difficult to get such things, and you've got a bunch of pissed off kids with fucked values.

From what I have heard on other threads, the system over there doesn't afford a lot of opportunities. I was surprised, for example, to learn on one thread here that it is quite uncommon for people under 18 to have held a job, and it is not at all uncommon for folks who are 19 and 20 to still not have a job. I was educated that G.B. there aren't any opportunities, or hardly any, and that the jobs that are listed are few and far between, already taken, or not serious job advertisements. It seems to me that something must be gumming up the works such that people can't just go do something. When I was a kid in the US, the guy who ran the corner store would hire a kid in a heartbeat and pay a low minimum wage to have the kid do miscellaneous, unskilled tasks. It was always a kid's job to wheel boxes of stuff into the store, stock shelves, break up boxes, price the merchandise, etc. That was never a job for an adult, but it was a great job for any number of high school kids to come in part time and make a few bucks, and in the process learn how to work, and what it means to hold a job. From what I understand, and from what I've been told, in G.B. those menial jobs are being vied for by adults.

Also, maybe the barriers to entry are too high? Are employers resistant to hire due to the level of "protections" for employees and the associate costs on top of salary? I mean - I know even where I am now, hiring an employee is a big decision - it's not just the salary - you pretty much have to add 50 cents on the dollar for benefits and payroll taxes, and then there is the resistance to want to let someone go. If I had, on top of that, a requirement to pay someone for being off work for months at a time, the requirement to pay them to take vacations for a month, and other such things, I would be even less likely to hire a new employee. And, then if I can't just make a decision to fire that person without worrying about a claim that I didn't have "just cause" to get rid of an unneeded employee, that would , of course, make me even more reticent to hire.

And, maybe the barriers to entry for a person starting their own business are too high? Can these "youths" just up and start their own cleaning business, or are there large permit fees, red tape and and other twists and turns that keep people from being able to bootstrap themselves into a sole proprietorship or partnership?

It seems to me, that maybe the system over there works in some ways to keep people down and limit their opportunities. I may be wrong, as I don't live there and have little experience to back up my suggestions. But, I do remember what people posted about the job situation in England, and what they told me of the economy there.

There is a artificial scarcity of housing and a impossible 'catch 22' housing/low income benefits system so no one can do anything unless their gonna be 'white middle class suit stock' over here. The country as a deep central fracture stretching back to the empire times. The end of the grammar school system means there's plenty of very very intelligent semi-educated 'chavs' growing into adulthood with full situational awareness and a score to settle on the overbearing 'too many chiefs' syndrome over here.

[Coito ergo sum]

There is a artificial scarcity of housing and a impossible 'catch 22' housing/low income benefits system so no one can do anything unless their gonna be 'white middle class suit stock' over here. The country as a deep central fracture stretching back to the empire times. The end of the grammar school system means there's plenty of very very intelligent semi-educated 'chavs' growing into adulthood with full situational awareness and a score to settle on the overbearing 'too many chiefs' syndrome over here.

I am not sure I really get what you're saying here.

It seems to me that the "no one can do anything unless they're going to be white middle class suit stock" is almost an intended consequence of what I understand British police have been in the last few decades. Hasn't the policy been to equalize?

What's the artificial scarcity of housing? I'm not sure what that means, actually.

I never understood riots, even when they happen here. It always seemed to me that the rioters could go a lot further if they expend that energy working to improve their situation. I can't even imagine or fathom what would cause me to break the windows of the local fish & chips take out store. I mean - that guy isn't wealthy. That guy isn't advantaged. That guy busts his balls to make a living. And, these punks run around with their blackberries coordinating their looting to avoid the police. These are people who aren't even attacking "the rich" - they're attacking the hard working, kind folks in their own neighborhoods.

And, fucking hell - if you can afford to buy and pay the monthly fee for a blackberry, then you're not fucking poor. End of fucking story, really. If I were poor, one of the first things I would cut would be unnecessary expenses and a blackberry or iphone would only be necessary if it helped you make money. Otherwise, one only needs the very basic communication service, which one could get by on a very low cost plan - far less than the $100 a month for a blackberry or iphone plan (after the monthly charge, taxes, and data package.).

[The Red Fox]

I blame an increasingly consumerist and status obsessed culture that has implanted the notion that if you do not have X, Y and Z then you are somehow not worthy.

Add that to a bit of class-ism and or racism in economic situation where it is increasingly difficult to get such things, and you've got a bunch of pissed off kids with fucked values.

From what I have heard on other threads, the system over there doesn't afford a lot of opportunities. I was surprised, for example, to learn on one thread here that it is quite uncommon for people under 18 to have held a job, and it is not at all uncommon for folks who are 19 and 20 to still not have a job. I was educated that G.B. there aren't any opportunities, or hardly any, and that the jobs that are listed are few and far between, already taken, or not serious job advertisements. It seems to me that something must be gumming up the works such that people can't just go do something. When I was a kid in the US, the guy who ran the corner store would hire a kid in a heartbeat and pay a low minimum wage to have the kid do miscellaneous, unskilled tasks. It was always a kid's job to wheel boxes of stuff into the store, stock shelves, break up boxes, price the merchandise, etc. That was never a job for an adult, but it was a great job for any number of high school kids to come in part time and make a few bucks, and in the process learn how to work, and what it means to hold a job. From what I understand, and from what I've been told, in G.B. those menial jobs are being vied for by adults.

Also, maybe the barriers to entry are too high? Are employers resistant to hire due to the level of "protections" for employees and the associate costs on top of salary? I mean - I know even where I am now, hiring an employee is a big decision - it's not just the salary - you pretty much have to add 50 cents on the dollar for benefits and payroll taxes, and then there is the resistance to want to let someone go. If I had, on top of that, a requirement to pay someone for being off work for months at a time, the requirement to pay them to take vacations for a month, and other such things, I would be even less likely to hire a new employee. And, then if I can't just make a decision to fire that person without worrying about a claim that I didn't have "just cause" to get rid of an unneeded employee, that would , of course, make me even more reticent to hire.

And, maybe the barriers to entry for a person starting their own business are too high? Can these "youths" just up and start their own cleaning business, or are there large permit fees, red tape and and other twists and turns that keep people from being able to bootstrap themselves into a sole proprietorship or partnership?

It seems to me, that maybe the system over there works in some ways to keep people down and limit their opportunities. I may be wrong, as I don't live there and have little experience to back up my suggestions. But, I do remember what people posted about the job situation in England, and what they told me of the economy there.

I'll put it to you this way: I'm 21, enrolled at a very well ranked University, have previous work experience and good references and I can't even get a cleaning job. You know, that menial shit-shovelling task they only give to illegal immigrants in the states. I don't know if your explanation is true, but the employment situation here is fucked.

Now it's started it won't stop. The initial victory will brave them up. Even if the police use water canon or the army are brought in they've tasted victory and that'll brave 'em up so the nightmare will go on and never end. Not until a chav sits on the throne. And we'll all know about that. Consider this the opening round in a multi-round fight, and the 'outsiders' have scored big time.

So that's the cause of the riots. They want Prince Harry on the throne.

[laklak]

So take more money from the white middle class suits and give it to the chavs, that's the obvious answer. They're not really bad, not really criminal or lazy, they just feel "disconnected" from society and need more free shit. Free housing, money, education and health care isn't enough, evidently. Maybe free cars? Free 6 week vacations on the Spanish coast? These poor fuckers have to shop at Lidi's and drink XXXX, they should get vouchers for Marks & Sparks and a weekly Pimms allotment.

[Coito ergo sum]

I blame an increasingly consumerist and status obsessed culture that has implanted the notion that if you do not have X, Y and Z then you are somehow not worthy.

Add that to a bit of class-ism and or racism in economic situation where it is increasingly difficult to get such things, and you've got a bunch of pissed off kids with fucked values.

From what I have heard on other threads, the system over there doesn't afford a lot of opportunities. I was surprised, for example, to learn on one thread here that it is quite uncommon for people under 18 to have held a job, and it is not at all uncommon for folks who are 19 and 20 to still not have a job. I was educated that G.B. there aren't any opportunities, or hardly any, and that the jobs that are listed are few and far between, already taken, or not serious job advertisements. It seems to me that something must be gumming up the works such that people can't just go do something. When I was a kid in the US, the guy who ran the corner store would hire a kid in a heartbeat and pay a low minimum wage to have the kid do miscellaneous, unskilled tasks. It was always a kid's job to wheel boxes of stuff into the store, stock shelves, break up boxes, price the merchandise, etc. That was never a job for an adult, but it was a great job for any number of high school kids to come in part time and make a few bucks, and in the process learn how to work, and what it means to hold a job. From what I understand, and from what I've been told, in G.B. those menial jobs are being vied for by adults.

Also, maybe the barriers to entry are too high? Are employers resistant to hire due to the level of "protections" for employees and the associate costs on top of salary? I mean - I know even where I am now, hiring an employee is a big decision - it's not just the salary - you pretty much have to add 50 cents on the dollar for benefits and payroll taxes, and then there is the resistance to want to let someone go. If I had, on top of that, a requirement to pay someone for being off work for months at a time, the requirement to pay them to take vacations for a month, and other such things, I would be even less likely to hire a new employee. And, then if I can't just make a decision to fire that person without worrying about a claim that I didn't have "just cause" to get rid of an unneeded employee, that would , of course, make me even more reticent to hire.

And, maybe the barriers to entry for a person starting their own business are too high? Can these "youths" just up and start their own cleaning business, or are there large permit fees, red tape and and other twists and turns that keep people from being able to bootstrap themselves into a sole proprietorship or partnership?

It seems to me, that maybe the system over there works in some ways to keep people down and limit their opportunities. I may be wrong, as I don't live there and have little experience to back up my suggestions. But, I do remember what people posted about the job situation in England, and what they told me of the economy there.

I'll put it to you this way: I'm 21, enrolled at a very well ranked University, have previous work experience and good references and I can't even get a cleaning job. You know, that menial shit-shovelling task they only give to illegal immigrants in the states. I don't know if your explanation is true, but the employment situation here is fucked.

First of all, please do not further stereotypes, at least ones that aren't true. I happen to know white, Anglo-Saxon Americans who work in the office cleaning and parking lot cleaning businesses. They are NOT jobs that "they" only give to illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants do work as cleaning people, but that's mainly because cleaning businesses can be run as predominantly under-the-table cash affairs that lets illegal immigrants keep a low profile, but the majority of people who do office cleaning and other such jobs are not illegal immigrants. Many are legal immigrants, and many are American citizens.

I wonder about the barriers to entry in starting a business. A cleaning business here in the States is low overhead, and there isn't much regulation. I would think a person in your situation could simply hang out a sign, and go door to door in the neighborhood and sell your cleaning services, and work hard to start a business on your own. Are there cost barriers or regulatory barriers that make that difficult?

[Atheist-Lite]

So take more money from the white middle class suits and give it to the chavs, that's the obvious answer. They're not really bad, not really criminal or lazy, they just feel "disconnected" from society and need more free shit. Free housing, money, education and health care isn't enough, evidently. Maybe free cars? Free 6 week vacations on the Spanish coast? These poor fuckers have to shop at Lidi's and drink XXXX, they should get vouchers for Marks & Sparks and a weekly Pimms allotment.

I think they deserve better. They've no education been fed a diet of crap TV and media fakery. Best we can do is let them channel their energy for change into overthrowing a rotten social order. I'm afraid this is necessary for true progress. They may be social scum now but put them in uniform and they'll develop a sense of pride and self worth. Let them destroy the 'consumer society' which is 'consuming the earth' and see how much I personally care if they burn your local High Street clone stores down. I couldn't care a jot. You, like they can shop in the cinders.

[Warren Dew]

And, fucking hell - if you can afford to buy and pay the monthly fee for a blackberry, then you're not fucking poor. End of fucking story, really. If I were poor, one of the first things I would cut would be unnecessary expenses and a blackberry or iphone would only be necessary if it helped you make money. Otherwise, one only needs the very basic communication service, which one could get by on a very low cost plan - far less than the $100 a month for a blackberry or iphone plan (after the monthly charge, taxes, and data package.).

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the U.S., you lose many welfare benefits if you have more than $3000 or so in savings. The upshot is that the system encourages people to spend all their money and avoid saving.

[Warren Dew]

@ WD Bigger welfare payouts, bigger housing, family protection??

So perhaps the bigger welfare payments and housing should be gotten rid of? They don't seem to be helping produce more responsible citizens out of the children.

Or does that just replace an "irresponsible children" problem with a "no children" problem?

[Coito ergo sum]

And, fucking hell - if you can afford to buy and pay the monthly fee for a blackberry, then you're not fucking poor. End of fucking story, really. If I were poor, one of the first things I would cut would be unnecessary expenses and a blackberry or iphone would only be necessary if it helped you make money. Otherwise, one only needs the very basic communication service, which one could get by on a very low cost plan - far less than the $100 a month for a blackberry or iphone plan (after the monthly charge, taxes, and data package.).

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the U.S., you lose many welfare benefits if you have more than $3000 or so in savings. The upshot is that the system encourages people to spend all their money and avoid saving.

Well, there is a bit of a catch-22 there, of course. I also wouldn't want the system to allow folks to keep on the dole when they're socking away 10s of thousands of dollars in cash savings. That would encourage everyone to be on the dole, because why should person A be able to make good money and save it up and still collect dole, when I can't?

[Atheist-Lite]

@ WD Bigger welfare payouts, bigger housing, family protection??

So perhaps the bigger welfare payments and housing should be gotten rid of? They don't seem to be helping produce more responsible citizens out of the children.

Or does that just replace an "irresponsible children" problem with a "no children" problem?

Yeah. It'll subvert into many more short term relationships too. The sum of human misery will increase. And the feckless males will gain seduction skills that'll crossover into mainstream society, lowering standards everywhere. The path to hell is paved with good intention and obvious (too good to be true) solutions.

[Coito ergo sum]

@ WD Bigger welfare payouts, bigger housing, family protection??

So perhaps the bigger welfare payments and housing should be gotten rid of? They don't seem to be helping produce more responsible citizens out of the children.

Or does that just replace an "irresponsible children" problem with a "no children" problem?

How about a system that supports people if they are on the balls of their ass, but provides opportunities such that actually going to work, and working full time, and working hard, results in a higher standard of living? And, a system that gets out of the way of productive pursuits, rather than socks them with high fees and onerous red tape and other barriers to entry that prevent people from taking responsibility for their own shit?

[The Red Fox]

I blame an increasingly consumerist and status obsessed culture that has implanted the notion that if you do not have X, Y and Z then you are somehow not worthy.

Add that to a bit of class-ism and or racism in economic situation where it is increasingly difficult to get such things, and you've got a bunch of pissed off kids with fucked values.

From what I have heard on other threads, the system over there doesn't afford a lot of opportunities. I was surprised, for example, to learn on one thread here that it is quite uncommon for people under 18 to have held a job, and it is not at all uncommon for folks who are 19 and 20 to still not have a job. I was educated that G.B. there aren't any opportunities, or hardly any, and that the jobs that are listed are few and far between, already taken, or not serious job advertisements. It seems to me that something must be gumming up the works such that people can't just go do something. When I was a kid in the US, the guy who ran the corner store would hire a kid in a heartbeat and pay a low minimum wage to have the kid do miscellaneous, unskilled tasks. It was always a kid's job to wheel boxes of stuff into the store, stock shelves, break up boxes, price the merchandise, etc. That was never a job for an adult, but it was a great job for any number of high school kids to come in part time and make a few bucks, and in the process learn how to work, and what it means to hold a job. From what I understand, and from what I've been told, in G.B. those menial jobs are being vied for by adults.

Also, maybe the barriers to entry are too high? Are employers resistant to hire due to the level of "protections" for employees and the associate costs on top of salary? I mean - I know even where I am now, hiring an employee is a big decision - it's not just the salary - you pretty much have to add 50 cents on the dollar for benefits and payroll taxes, and then there is the resistance to want to let someone go. If I had, on top of that, a requirement to pay someone for being off work for months at a time, the requirement to pay them to take vacations for a month, and other such things, I would be even less likely to hire a new employee. And, then if I can't just make a decision to fire that person without worrying about a claim that I didn't have "just cause" to get rid of an unneeded employee, that would , of course, make me even more reticent to hire.

And, maybe the barriers to entry for a person starting their own business are too high? Can these "youths" just up and start their own cleaning business, or are there large permit fees, red tape and and other twists and turns that keep people from being able to bootstrap themselves into a sole proprietorship or partnership?

It seems to me, that maybe the system over there works in some ways to keep people down and limit their opportunities. I may be wrong, as I don't live there and have little experience to back up my suggestions. But, I do remember what people posted about the job situation in England, and what they told me of the economy there.

I'll put it to you this way: I'm 21, enrolled at a very well ranked University, have previous work experience and good references and I can't even get a cleaning job. You know, that menial shit-shovelling task they only give to illegal immigrants in the states. I don't know if your explanation is true, but the employment situation here is fucked.

First of all, please do not further stereotypes, at least ones that aren't true. I happen to know white, Anglo-Saxon Americans who work in the office cleaning and parking lot cleaning businesses. They are NOT jobs that "they" only give to illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants do work as cleaning people, but that's mainly because cleaning businesses can be run as predominantly under-the-table cash affairs that lets illegal immigrants keep a low profile, but the majority of people who do office cleaning and other such jobs are not illegal immigrants. Many are legal immigrants, and many are American citizens.

I wonder about the barriers to entry in starting a business. A cleaning business here in the States is low overhead, and there isn't much regulation. I would think a person in your situation could simply hang out a sign, and go door to door in the neighborhood and sell your cleaning services, and work hard to start a business on your own. Are there cost barriers or regulatory barriers that make that difficult?

Cleaning is just one example of the many menial jobs I can't get. I have absolutely no idea what's involved in starting a business here. What I have heard from a couple of self-employed businessmen I worked for is that it's a lot of extra tax paperwork to fill in and it requires registration when you first start up. I think the legal mess in getting it set up and registered as a legitimate business and the tax involved puts a lot of people off.

If on the other hand I was just a one-man operation selling my services door-to-door, I'd have to register as self-employed and fill out the assorted tax returns if I made more than £7475 a year.