Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by klr » Wed May 06, 2009 8:58 am

The Irish Examiner has been relatively quiet on this issue, but here is a good opinion piece from today's edition:

http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnis ... 91049.html
Sinister blasphemy law would play into the hands of religious nut cases

Wednesday, May 06, 2009

If Jesus were in Ireland today, under the new law, wouldn’t he be one of its first victims, held in Portlaoise, perhaps, while lawyers debated whether he should be deported to Israel, or the Palestinian Authority, or tried here? Muslims might find their mosques under close inspection, too

WE can only speculate as to why Justice Minister Dermot Ahern is proposing to introduce a new crime of blasphemous libel punishable by fines up to €100,000. Is it to salve his conscience for having to implement other policies which offend his personal sense of what is right and wrong? Is it a government ploy to distract attention from more pressing matters? Who knows?

The minister’s side of the story is that successive attorneys general have advised his predecessors that the constitution imposes an obligation to provide legal force to article 40 of the constitution, which states: "The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious or indecent material is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law."

"Blasphemous matter" is to be defined as anything "that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion; and he or she intends, by the publication of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage."

The only alternative, we are told, is for the country to hold a referendum removing that clause from the constitution, an option the minister is resisting on cost grounds.

What price free speech, you might ask? You can’t have democracy if people can’t exchange information, argue and challenge one another.

You can’t have education unless people are free to get information, ask questions and dispute. There is no due process of law unless people are able to speak freely in a court of law.

As if this were not enough, the minister has not offered a single concrete example of what he has in mind to ban; nor has he been able to define a religion. There is a point of principle here. Is it always wrong to try to inspire hatred of any and all religions? Satanists, witchdoctors, Scientologists: must criticism of them be protected by law?

Yes, blasphemy sounds like a bad thing and the instinctive reaction is "let’s have a law against that". And the abuse of people is very wrong, and there are laws against that.

But what is wrong with inciting intense dislike of a religion, if the activities or teachings of that religion are so outrageous, irrational or abusive of human rights that they deserve to be disliked intensely?

It is nonsense to pretend the minister’s proposal is somehow the logical extension of laws against racial hatred. Our race is in our genes; religion is a matter of choice and conscience and belief. If a religion is worth believing in, it ought to be strong enough to withstand the most scurrilous and monstrous attacks. Those assaults should diminish the critics, not the religion itself.

Those who cry "blasphemy", however, all too often simply mean they are offended. Isn’t God made of altogether sterner stuff? From the Christian point of view, if God is big enough to absorb it through the humiliation and agony of the cross, then wouldn’t the Christ-like thing be to put up with altogether less harmful attacks?

There has only been one (unsuccessful) prosecution for blasphemy under the current Defamation Act. But if blasphemous libel were to become an offence, the gardaí could be kept very busy indeed.

For instance, couldn’t it be argued Jesus insulted the Jewish faithful? Isn’t the Christian belief that Jesus is God a blasphemy to Muslims and Jews?

If Jesus were in Ireland today, under the new law, wouldn’t he be one of its first victims, held in Portlaoise, perhaps, while lawyers debated whether he should be deported to Israel, or the Palestinian Authority, or tried here?

Muslims might find their mosques under close inspection, too. If the proposed bill makes any sense at all, it must entail banning the public reading of many passages of the Koran calling for Jews and Christians to be despised and killed. Surely that is not the intention?

If the minister does not mean such a ban, then his proposal is a nonsense. If the proposed bill would not have any force against such blatant incitements, then wouldn’t its very existence on the statute book possibly provoke unrest from those who believe it should be vigorously enforced?

In other words, this proposed piece of legislation is either going to encourage censorship, which is abhorrent, or else it is going to raise false hopes and inflame even further the resentment of those who feel their religion has been insulted.

The fact is the DPP will find it impossible to make an adequate distinction between the freedom to ridicule or lampoon religion, and the freedom to hold it up to contempt and hatred. One man’s satire is another man’s blasphemy.

To criticise people for their race is manifestly irrational, but to criticise their religion is surely a right. The freedom to criticise or ridicule ideas – even if they are sincerely held beliefs – is a fundamental freedom.

And a law which says you can ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very odd law indeed. The minister’s proposal would put belief into a sacred compound protected by legal razor-wire from robust mockery or public abuse. Religion would become a minefield, a no-go area in the world of ideas. Before you speak or write, ask yourself not only if you intend to abuse and insult, but if you are doing so "grossly".

Expect the degree of insult people feel to tighten a little more each year under case law. All that will be required is for a priest or minister or rabbi or imam to say his flock is insulted and, hey presto, case closed. Little by little, debate will be chilled.

THIS is not some mere theoretical, legalistic discussion. Have we forgotten that some churches in South Africa within living memory promoted the view that white people were superior to blacks and coloureds? Do we not recall some of the hateful things said by extreme elements in Northern Ireland against minorities?

Don’t some strands of Islam promote female circumcision? There are lots of little fascisms masquerading as religions in this world. But if the minister gets his way, these nut cases will be protected from all criticism. All they have to do is claim it is their deeply held religious belief and I will be heading for a whacking fine.

Indeed, the proposed law is so sinister and intimidating, it will provide that immunity without even the need to prosecute anyone. In other words, we will have self-censorship.

The problem with blasphemy laws is that race and religion are fundamentally different concepts. Yes, it can be hard to separate the two sometimes, to separate abuse of people’s ideas from abuse of people who hold those ideas, but isn’t that what judges are there for?

Ideas cannot be policed, though blatant threats always have been. The minister should go to the country on the issue. And if the public finances really are so bad that a referendum cannot be afforded – a sad indictment in itself – the appropriate maximum fine should be one whole euro.

Even €100,000, though, would be a price worth paying if that’s what it takes to keep society free.
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by devogue » Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 am

Seraph wrote:
Devogue wrote:
klr wrote:This is a letter to Irish Independent in response to that bizarre letter by one Eric Conway (see earlier on this page):

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/lette ... 27857.html
I believe in your right to believe
Monday May 04 2009

Eric Conway (Letters, 02/05) suggests, apparently entirely seriously, that atheism should be legally branded a thought crime by the State.

Notwithstanding the obviously ludicrous nature of this dystopian fantasy, which in itself scarcely deserves consideration, I feel it important to correct his preceding misunderstandings which are perhaps a little more widely held.

A fact that seems to be acknowledged for all areas of social dialogue apart from religion is that scorning the views or beliefs held by another is quite distinct from criticising or ridiculing the individual themselves. No one set of beliefs or ideologies should ever be put off the table of rational debate; for this is the point at which we enter the realms of totalitarianism. Consider, for example, how ridiculous it would rightly be perceived if offence towards the political inclinations or musical tastes of others were outlawed, and you'll immediately notice the cognitive dissonance that seems to occur when religion is substituted for these fields.

The real problem here is that religion has carved itself a niche in society whereby it gains immunity from even the mildest of criticisms. In reality, all that most atheists are advocating here is the extension of free and open discussion; a concept that seems worryingly, but not surprisingly, troubling to large swathes of religious sentiment. In the spirit of Voltaire, I may not agree with the conflicting views of my compatriot, but I'll defend to the death his right to express it: and that goes for religion, too.

Adam Dinan
Douglas Road, Cork
I hate fuckers who quote that tired old Voltaire shit, no matter how true it is.

Just saying.
Oh fuck! In that case you'll really hate me. Part of my signature at the moment: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4 BC – AD 65" To me the Voltaire quote is not tired, old shit. It's democratic. I like it for that, and I like to see it quoted; the morer the betterer. But, hey, I can see where you're coming from.
It's not that I disagree with it - the old "defend to the death your right" quote is brilliant, noble and moving - it's just so "played out", if you know what I mean. It's like a song which has been played so many times its strength and power has been diluted.

I've seen your quote from Seneca before, but it's brilliant and not so overused - so I'll let you away with it this time. ;)

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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by klr » Wed May 20, 2009 11:06 am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... king53.htm
Ahern 'bemused' by criticism

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has said he is “bemused” by recent criticism of his proposal to include an offence of blasphemy in new defamation legislation due to be debated before an Oireachtas committee tomorrow.

Mr Ahern was responding after the media watchdog of the world’s largest regional security organisation said the Government’s plan to introduce the blasphemy law would be in violation of international agreements on media freedom.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) representative on freedom of the media, Miklos Haraszti, said new court cases that might emerge as a result of criminalising 'blasphemy' would have a “chilling effect” on freedom of expression.

Mr Ahern last month revealed he would propose an offence of blasphemous libel in an amendment to the Defamation Bill. The new section of the Bill will state: “A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000.”

He insists he is obliged to take account of the offence of blasphemy, which is provided for in the 1937 Constitution.

Article 40.6.1 of the Constitution states that the “publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law”.

Under the 1961 Defamation Act, the publication of any “blasphemous or obscene” libel is subject, on conviction, to a fine of up to £500 (pounds) or imprisonment for a term of up to two years, or to “both fine and imprisonment or to penal servitude for a term not exceeding seven years”.

A spokesman for Mr Ahern said he had two options, either to amend the Constitution, or amend the law.

The spokesman said the Minister was “bemused” by recent criticism of his propsal to amend the law on blasphemy.

“He has to do it because he is the Minister for Justice and he cannot willfully ignore the Constitution. Unlike the ‘commentariat’, the Minister does not have the option of wilfully ignoring the Constitution. He is the Minister for Justice and he is advised by the Attorney General that he has to have regard to the offence of blasphemy.”

The spokesman said the Minister felt that in the “current economic environment” it was not the time to go to the people seeking to amend an article of the Constitution.

The Minister will propose an amendment to the 2006 Defamation Bill at the Committee stage in the Oireachtas tomorrow.

Under the Minister’s amendment, the offence of blasphemy can only be prosecuted following a decision by the Director of Public Prosecutions. The offence will also no longer be punishable by a jail term.

That amendment will state that it shall be a defence where a prosecution is taken under the section on blasphemy for the defendant to prove that a “reasonable person” would find “general literary, artistic, political, scientific or academic value” in the material to which the alleged offence relates.

The debate on the Defamation Bill 2006 continues at Committee stage tomorrow when the Oireachtas Committee on Justice will discuss proposed amendments.

Mr Haraszti today welcomed the Government’s plan to decriminalise defamation, but said the proposal to create the offence of ‘blasphemous libel’ risked “jeopardising OSCE media freedom commitments”.

In a statement on the OSCE’s website today, he said Ireland was “in the vanguard of 21st century media freedoms as it prepares to officially make defamation a mere civil offence”.

“It would therefore be unfortunate to introduce at the same time a new crime of 'blasphemous libel'.”

Mr Haraszti has written to Mr Ahern and to the Oireachtas committee debating the Bill, urging that it be passed without the blasphemy provision.
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by klr » Wed May 20, 2009 11:20 am

That was yesterday. Similar story line today, same paper:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 53537.html
Warning of blasphemy law's 'chilling effect' on free speech

MARY FITZGERALD and ELAINE EDWARDS

THE ORGANISATION for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) has warned the Government that its plan to introduce a new blasphemy law risks flouting international standards on freedom of speech.

Miklos Haraszti, media freedom representative for the 56-nation OSCE, the world’s largest regional security organisation, said new court cases that might emerge as a result of criminalising blasphemy would have a “chilling effect” on freedom of expression.

Last month Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern announced that he would propose a new crime of blasphemous libel in an amendment to the Defamation Bill.

The new section of the Bill will state: “A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000.”

Mr Haraszti welcomed the Government’s plan to decriminalise defamation, but said the proposed new offence risked “jeopardising OSCE media freedom commitments”.

By passing such a provision, Ireland would “defy the international trend that has led to the abolition of that crime in a number of countries”, he said. “It also could hamper progress towards greater freedom of speech in other OSCE participating states.”

In a statement posted on the Vienna-based OSCE’s website, Mr Haraszti described Ireland as being “in the vanguard of 21st-century media freedoms as it prepares to officially make defamation a mere civil offence”. It would therefore, he continued, be “unfortunate” to introduce at the same time a new crime of blasphemous libel.

Mr Haraszti has written to Mr Ahern and to the Oireachtas committee debating the Bill, calling for it to be passed without the blasphemy provision.

“I am aware that the new article is meant to bring the law into line with a constitutional provision dating from 1937,” said Mr Haraszti.

“Nonetheless, it violates OSCE media freedom commitments and other international standards upholding the right to freely discuss issues of religion.”

He added: “It is clear that the Government’s gesture of passing a new version of the ‘blasphemy article’, even if milder than the dormant old version, might incite new court cases and thereby exercise a chilling effect on freedom of expression.”

Mr Ahern insists he is obliged to take account of the offence of blasphemy, which is provided for in the Constitution.

Article 40.6.1 of the Constitution states that the “publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law”.

A spokesman for the Minister said he had two options, either to amend the Constitution, or amend the law.

The spokesman said Mr Ahern was “bemused” by criticism of his proposed amendment.

“He has to do it because he is the Minister for Justice and he cannot wilfully ignore the Constitution. Unlike the commentariat, the Minister does not have the option of wilfully ignoring the Constitution,” the spokesman said.

“He is the Minister for Justice and he is advised by the Attorney General that he has to have regard to the offence of blasphemy.”

Mr Ahern, he added, felt that in “the current economic environment” it was not appropriate to go to the people seeking to amend an article of the Constitution.

The debate on the Defamation Bill 2006 continues at Committee stage today when the Oireachtas Committee on Justice will discuss the proposed amendments.
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Feck » Wed May 20, 2009 11:40 am

How in hell can God sue for libel ,this is all so insane,which legal firm would he employ .If you said God(ignoring which one ?)is or was a homicidal maniac are they really going to legally disagree .
Or do they really want to fine anyone who writes an atheist book ? Legally shouldn't they have to prove a God before they can pass a law on his behalf. Are they going to rewrite almost the entire history of the church in Ireland because the the truth is offensive ?
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Hermit » Wed May 20, 2009 12:47 pm

mrenutt4 wrote:How in hell can God sue for libel ,this is all so insane,which legal firm would he employ .If you said God(ignoring which one ?)is or was a homicidal maniac are they really going to legally disagree .
The proposed crime of blasphemy is independent of the question regarding any god's existence. It depends on whether a substantial number (not defined) of believers feels outraged, and if "intent to offend" (again, undefined) can be proven. "Blasphemous matter is defined as matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion; and he or she intends, by the publication of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage." (Irishtimes) It seems quite conceivable that both, Richard Dawkins' description of the god of the old testament and the absurdities inherent in the new one in his book, The God Delusion, as well as the cartoons depicting Mohammad in a Danish newspaper, could be judged to instances of the crimnal offense of blasphemy. There certainly was "outrage among a substantial number of the adherents" of the relevant religions. As for intent, it could be argued that "surely, the authors must have known the consequences of their words/graphics. Yet they proceeded regardless. They thus must have intended to cause outrage."

I really don't know how people like Ahern can become - let alone remain - part of a democratically elected, secular government. I don't know why the government has not yet been turfed out for proposing to commit the crime to return to theocracy.
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Feck » Wed May 20, 2009 12:53 pm

So if you publish something about ANY god or religion and some people don't like it ,you have commited a crime ?
And MY sanity is in doubt !
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed May 20, 2009 1:12 pm

Under this proposed law, the Church of Satan would have a pretty good case for describing the catholic baptism service as 'blasphemous'! :twisted:
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Feck » Wed May 20, 2009 1:13 pm

GSM followers could have a great time :hehe:
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Animavore » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:16 am

Apparently yer man Dermot Ahern tried to slip in the blasphemy bill on Thursday and it was rejected with (gasp) 23 votes to 22 (disgraceful).

Here's Michael Nugents piece from the Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 87007.html

There's a meeting of www.atheistireland.ie, which Michael Nugent shall be speaker, in the Wynns Hotel in Dublin at 2 which I shall attend like an attentive person.

I'll give you the low down later.

Here's an email I got from Atheist Ireland last night.
Senator Bacik to open Atheist Ireland AGM 2 pm Saturday

Just a quick reminder that the first Atheist Ireland AGM will take place at
2 pm tomorrow, Saturday 11 July, in Wynns Hotel in Abbey Street Dublin.

Senator Ivana Bacik will open the meeting, and will talk about the
blasphemy law that was passed in the Seanad yesterday.

Members of the public are welcome to attend, so please bring along or
invite anyone you think might be interested.

The meeting will discuss a blasphemous statement to be published in
response to the new blasphemy law.

See opinion piece about this in today’s Irish Times: http://bit.ly/11i56G

The meeting will also plan a long-term campaign to have the blasphemy law
repealed, and to remove references to blasphemy and gods from the Irish
Constitution.

Dick Spicer will also speak on behalf of the Humanist Association of
Ireland.

Atheist Ireland is an advocacy group that campaigns for an ethical and
secular Ireland, where the State does not support or fund or give special
treatment to any religion. As well as a secular Constitution, we want to
see a secular education system.

We are also launching a campaign encouraging people to read the Bible and
other sacred books. Objectively reading the Bible is one of the strongest
arguments for rejecting the idea of gods as intervening creators or moral
guides.

Thanks for your interest and support for the important work of Atheist
Ireland, and hope to see you tomorrow or soon after.


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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by klr » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:48 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... phemy-laws
Who asked for Ireland's blasphemy law?

I'm not sure which piece of unpopular Irish news is being buried by which: the announcement of a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty, or the shuffling through of a law creating penalties for blasphemy, an offence that has never properly existed in the Irish state.

While there is certainly a store of resentment in the population at being asked to vote again (that is: vote properly, you morons, as the government is barely holding back from saying) on the Lisbon treaty, there is a certain sense of bafflement at the new blasphemy legislation, smuggled in under the guise of defamation law reform. Nobody wanted this law: no one can think of a single thundering priest, austere vicar, irate rabbi or miffed mullah ever calling for tougher penalties for blasphemy. Certainly there were the frequent, and frequently ignored missives from Armagh, warning the Irish not to abandon God for 4x4s and Nintendo Wiis. And there was widespread dismay when popular comic Tommy Tiernan pushed the Bible-baiting a bit too far on the Late Late Show. But never did anyone suggest we needed tough blasphemy laws. Until the justice minister, Dermot Ahern, decided we needed to fill the "void" left by our lack of one.

Technically, Ahern is correct that Bunreacht na hÉireann requires that blasphemy be a criminal offence. However, no one ever bothered to formulate what the exact offence might be, and we muddled on for quite a long time without anyone worrying about this (perhaps, as a friend pointed out to me, because all blasphemous material was grabbed by the all-powerful censors long before it could ever get to court). In 1999, there was an attempt to prosecute a newspaper for a cartoon mocking the church, but the judge in that case noted that he could not prosecute, because there was no definition of what legally constituted blasphemy. Well now there is. And it concerns itself with what might or might not cause "outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of [a] religion" (note, not just Christianity, as was the case with English blasphemy law: this is, at least, equal opportunities idiocy).

As Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland has pointed out:

"The proposed law does not protect religious belief; it incentivises outrage and it criminalises free speech. Under this proposed law, if a person expresses one belief about gods, and other people think that this insults a different belief about gods, then these people can become outraged, and this outrage can make it illegal for the first person to express his or her beliefs."

So Irish law has now enshrined the notion that the taking of offence is more important than free expression. If something might cause a motivated group to be "outraged", rather than, say, cause them to live in fear, then it is illegal, with a fine of up to €25,000 payable.

Note the ease with which a prosecution could be brought, and the punitive nature of the fine: this is not legislation that simply serves to tie up a few loose ends.

The minister claimed that his only alternative to this legislation was to have a referendum. This again, is technically true: any constitutional changes in Ireland require this. But the minister dismissed the notion of organising a referendum as being too costly in these straitened times.

Yet today, we are told there is to be another Lisbon referendum in October. Wouldn't it have been sensible to hold both the Lisbon referendum and a referendum on the abolition of the concept of blasphemy from the constitution on the same day, cutting down on costs? Wouldn't it, minister?
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by klr » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:47 am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 43694.html
Blasphemy law a return to middle ages - Dawkins

ALISON HEALY

THE NEW blasphemy law will send Ireland back to the middle ages, and is wretched, backward and uncivilised, Prof Richard Dawkins has said.

The scientist and critic of religion has lent his support to a campaign to repeal the law, introduced by Atheist Ireland, a group set up last December, arising from an online discussion forum. The law, which makes the publication or utterance of blasphemous matter a crime punishable by a €25,000 fine, passed through the Oireachtas last week.

In a message read out at Atheist Ireland’s first agm on Saturday, Prof Dawkins said: “One of the world’s most beautiful and best-loved countries, Ireland has recently become one of the most respected as well: dynamic, go-ahead, modern, civilised – a green and pleasant silicon valley. This preposterous blasphemy law puts all that respect at risk.” He said it would be too kind to call the law a ridiculous anachronism.

“It is a wretched, backward, uncivilised regression to the middle ages. Who was the bright spark who thought to besmirch the revered name of Ireland by proposing anything so stupid?”

Messages of support for the campaign were also received from the creators of Father Ted Graham Linehan and Arthur Matthews, and the European Humanist Federation. The federation, which represents 42 organisations in 19 countries, said it was “appalled” at the new law and it was “a seriously retrograde step”.

At the agm, Atheist Ireland members voted to test the new law by publishing a blasphemous statement, deliberately designed to cause offence. The statement will be finalised in the coming days.

Atheist Ireland’s chairman Michael Nugent said the group wanted to highlight the ridiculousness of the law. Labour Senator and barrister Ivana Bacik told the meeting that an amendment provides for a review of the law within five years. “There’s a great potential to have this very much altered if not removed altogether,” she said. The new law invited people to make complaints to gardaí and would result in “a huge amount” of wasted Garda time, she said.

“So for lots of reasons I think it’s going to be highly problematic . . . and it’s bad lawmaking if nothing else.”

Ms Bacik said the establishment of Atheist Ireland was “long overdue”. More than 150 people attended the meeting in Dublin and the group ran out of membership application forms. “I think it’s also good to see an organisation that has the word atheist in the title because for a long time many of us were in the closet,” she said.

“It’s not fashionable or popular to declare oneself to be an atheist. There are many people in Ireland who would like to describe themselves as atheists and I’m one of them. I think I may be the only self-confessed or card-carrying atheist in the Oireachtas.”

She said there should be space for atheists, agnostics and believers in organised religions. “And that’s the nature, to me, of a pluralist and tolerant and democratic republic, a country in which there is space for all of us, and in which no body’s belief elevates them to any particular position.”

The meeting agreed to campaign for the removal of all references to gods from the Constitution and for a secular education system. Ms Bacik said the education system, particularly at primary level, was “built on sectarian lines. It is a fundamentally sectarian system in which in our equal status legislation, schools are entitled to give priority to children of a particular religion”.

The group also launched a website http://www.countmeout.ie which provides information on how to formally leave the Catholic Church.

Atheist Ireland believes that many lapsed Catholics, agnostics and atheists are counted in the church’s membership and claims that these figures are used by the church to justify its continued involvement in education.

Atheist Ireland will also encourage people to read the Bible. Mr Nugent said an objective reading of the Bible was one of the strongest arguments for rejecting the idea of gods as intervening creators or moral guides.

Dick Spicer of the Humanist Association of Ireland welcomed the formation of the new group and said it illustrated the changes that had taken place in Irish society. “It’s a sign of how far we’ve come in Ireland, so take hope for the future. This society does move and it does move forward, more so, I think, than we appreciate.”
Of course, RD's comments about Ireland are a tad out of date - the Celtic Tiger is currently being stuffed, having expired some time ago. Still, if all this helps bring the cause of secularism more into the public view ...
God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion. - Superintendent Chalmers

It's not up to us to choose which laws we want to obey. If it were, I'd kill everyone who looked at me cock-eyed! - Rex Banner

The Bluebird of Happiness long absent from his life, Ned is visited by the Chicken of Depression. - Gary Larson

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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Animavore » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:49 am

At the meeting on Saturday Michael Nugent read out an email from Father Ted writer Arthur Mattews in it he said, "Its a pity this law didn't come out at the time of the show. It would've been great material." :hehe:
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Re: Feck! Ireland considers “blasphemous libel” law

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Wed May 30, 2012 1:50 pm

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