Blast in Oslo

[Seth]

I agree. You should immediately report to your nearest jail facility and turn yourself in...

Regardless of what shit I come up with unarmed people tend not go around massacring children just because someone considers them to be 'cultural marxists'

Problem with your lunatic delusion is that people who care to go around massacring children for whatever reason can always find a surfeit of weapons with which to do so.

Make note that this particular lunatic also killed people and did great damage with fertilizer and diesel fuel, and the 9/11 terrorists killed 3000 people with boxcutters and aircraft.

You are grossly and dangerously delusional if you believe that disarming law-abiding citizens is going to put a stop to mass murders like this. Even if you succeeded in removing every single firearm from the face of the planet, lunatics would use any of a thousand other weapons of mass destruction, like fertilizer and diesel fuel, to kill people. Hell, in India, battery acid is one of the most common weapons used against women.

What delusional lunatics who want to ban the possession of firearms by law-abiding citizens fail to understand, and which you have just confirmed they are incapable of understanding, is that there are many, many ways to kill people en masse or individually, but there are few effective ways for individuals to protect against such attacks, and when the most effective of those methods, the concealed handgun, is banned, people are pretty much entirely helpless, and therefore will die rather than being able to stop such attacks, which may use acid, or fertilizer, or gasoline mixed with laundry detergent, or a knife, or any of a thousand other threat vectors.

These sort of delusional lunatics think that if firearms are banned, everybody will suddenly become all happy-happy, joy-joy and violence will come to an end. Life doesn't work that way, at all.

That's such a dangerous mindset that those sorts of delusional lunatics need to be locked away for their, and particularly everyone else's safety, and the most certainly need to be banned from public office.

[Hermit]

^^^ I can see another derail developing that could be hived off to be merged with the previous one.

Fucking christians fundies. The pull of fascism is always bubbling beneath the surface.

That he is a racial supremacist christian fundie is a sick joke. His god was a middle eastern brown-eyed dark-skinned fellow. (If he existed as a person). Almost as far from blue-eyed aryan as one can get.

What a cunt.

From his 1500 page oeuvre:

I’m not going to pretend I’m a very religious person as that would be a lie. I’ve always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment. In the past, I remember I used to think;

“Religion is a crutch for weak people. What is the point in believing in a higher power if you have confidence in yourself!? Pathetic.”

Perhaps this is true for many cases. Religion is a crutch for many weak people and many embrace religion for self serving reasons as a source for drawing mental strength (to feed their weak emotional state f example during illness, death, poverty etc.). Since I am not a hypocrite, I’ll say directly that this is my agenda as well. However, I have not yet felt the need to ask God for strength, yet… But I’m pretty sure I will pray to God as I’m rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intention to stop and/or kill. I know there is a 80%+ chance I am going to die during the operation as I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives AND the bonus mission. When I initiate (providing I haven’t been apprehended before then), there is a 70% chance that I will complete the first objective, 40% for the second, 20% for the third and less than 5% chance that I will be able to complete the bonus mission. It is likely that I will pray to God for strength at one point during that operation, as I think most people in that situation would….If praying will act as an additional mental boost/soothing it is the pragmatical thing to do. I guess I will find out… If there is a God I will be allowed to enter heaven as all other martyrs for the Church in the past. (p. 1344)

Doesn't look like the writing of a christian fundamentalist to me.

The tragedy one person with right wing views who regards middle of the road politics, such as social democracy as communist, who feels he has the right to bear arms and that it is a good thing to exterminate everyone whom he regards as a communist, is immense. I am surprised and relieved that such tragedies do not happen more frequently than they do. There's something else I had in mind mentioning here, but the mere thought is just too scary for being so close.

If I believed in an afterlife, I'd say "Fare well" to the victims, who I think were preparing themselves for being part of a team that works to maintain or improve a just, free and enjoyable Norway. Instead, hugs to all who are closely or remotely connected with the victims.

[MiM]

I agree. You should immediately report to your nearest jail facility and turn yourself in...

Regardless of what shit I come up with unarmed people tend not go around massacring children just because someone considers them to be 'cultural marxists'

Problem with your lunatic delusion is that people who care to go around massacring children for whatever reason can always find a surfeit of weapons with which to do so.

Make note that this particular lunatic also killed people and did great damage with fertilizer and diesel fuel, and the 9/11 terrorists killed 3000 people with boxcutters and aircraft.

You are grossly and dangerously delusional if you believe that disarming law-abiding citizens is going to put a stop to mass murders like this. Even if you succeeded in removing every single firearm from the face of the planet, lunatics would use any of a thousand other weapons of mass destruction, like fertilizer and diesel fuel, to kill people. Hell, in India, battery acid is one of the most common weapons used against women.

What delusional lunatics who want to ban the possession of firearms by law-abiding citizens fail to understand, and which you have just confirmed they are incapable of understanding, is that there are many, many ways to kill people en masse or individually, but there are few effective ways for individuals to protect against such attacks, and when the most effective of those methods, the concealed handgun, is banned, people are pretty much entirely helpless, and therefore will die rather than being able to stop such attacks, which may use acid, or fertilizer, or gasoline mixed with laundry detergent, or a knife, or any of a thousand other threat vectors.

These sort of delusional lunatics think that if firearms are banned, everybody will suddenly become all happy-happy, joy-joy and violence will come to an end. Life doesn't work that way, at all.

That's such a dangerous mindset that those sorts of delusional lunatics need to be locked away for their, and particularly everyone else's safety, and the most certainly need to be banned from public office.

Huge strawman here

Nobody thinks banning handguns could completely stop things like this. However:

- The probability of law-enforcement finding out and stopping cases in advance would increase significantly
- Homicide numbers would go down, as killing in close contact is more difficult
- Lethal weapon accidents would drop drastically
etc...

Giving a huge positive net effect on reducing unnecessary deaths.

And please tell us the way to kill 77 or more people with battery acid or using some other "easy for anyone to get at" means. The Sarin attack in Japan was pretty unsuccessful, albeit all the effort going in to it. Ammonium nitrate is already on it's way to be licensed in the EU. And especially tell how you are going to stop every one of these schemes with your handgun.

[Ronja]

^^^ I can see another derail developing that could be hived off to be merged with the previous one.

Staff notified. It may take a while to a) find a volunteer for the task and b) for him or her to figure out what to extract and what to leave. Some of the posts are borderline (part on topic, part derail), and the continuity of this main thread should not be mangled too badly.

[Seth]

I agree. You should immediately report to your nearest jail facility and turn yourself in...

Regardless of what shit I come up with unarmed people tend not go around massacring children just because someone considers them to be 'cultural marxists'

Problem with your lunatic delusion is that people who care to go around massacring children for whatever reason can always find a surfeit of weapons with which to do so.

Make note that this particular lunatic also killed people and did great damage with fertilizer and diesel fuel, and the 9/11 terrorists killed 3000 people with boxcutters and aircraft.

You are grossly and dangerously delusional if you believe that disarming law-abiding citizens is going to put a stop to mass murders like this. Even if you succeeded in removing every single firearm from the face of the planet, lunatics would use any of a thousand other weapons of mass destruction, like fertilizer and diesel fuel, to kill people. Hell, in India, battery acid is one of the most common weapons used against women.

What delusional lunatics who want to ban the possession of firearms by law-abiding citizens fail to understand, and which you have just confirmed they are incapable of understanding, is that there are many, many ways to kill people en masse or individually, but there are few effective ways for individuals to protect against such attacks, and when the most effective of those methods, the concealed handgun, is banned, people are pretty much entirely helpless, and therefore will die rather than being able to stop such attacks, which may use acid, or fertilizer, or gasoline mixed with laundry detergent, or a knife, or any of a thousand other threat vectors.

These sort of delusional lunatics think that if firearms are banned, everybody will suddenly become all happy-happy, joy-joy and violence will come to an end. Life doesn't work that way, at all.

That's such a dangerous mindset that those sorts of delusional lunatics need to be locked away for their, and particularly everyone else's safety, and the most certainly need to be banned from public office.

Huge strawman here

Nobody thinks banning handguns could completely stop things like this. However:

- The probability of law-enforcement finding out and stopping cases in advance would increase significantly

How? Banning handguns does not prevent criminals from obtaining handguns and using them in crime, which is already illegal. If the police cannot prevent criminals from getting handguns illegally, how is banning the legal ownership of handguns going to prevent that.

- Homicide numbers would go down, as killing in close contact is more difficult

Not really. Most criminal handgun use takes place at less than 15 feet anyway, which is within knife range. Besides, disarming law-abiding citizens makes them more helpless, which means an increase in crime victimization, injury and death.

- Lethal weapon accidents would drop drastically

Gun accidents don't make the top 20 causes of death in the US. There are many other much more dangerous objects out there, so why not ban those with the greatest risk first?

Giving a huge positive net effect on reducing unnecessary deaths.

Except that it doesn't happen.

And please tell us the way to kill 77 or more people with battery acid or using some other "easy for anyone to get at" means.

Two gallons of jellied gasoline in glass bottles thrown into a crowded nightclub, for example.

The Sarin attack in Japan was pretty unsuccessful, albeit all the effort going in to it.

Doesn't mean the next one won't be successful.

Ammonium nitrate is already on it's way to be licensed in the EU.

Yeah, right, like that's going to keep nutters from STEALING FERTILIZER. The notion that small consumer amounts of fertilizer sold in garden stores is going to be licensed in any realistic fashion that will prevent someone who is determined to acquire a 50 gallon drum's worth (which makes a HUGE bomb) is silly. As long as fertilizer is available, and it'll always be available, there will be plenty of stocks to steal from or acquire piecemeal over a long period.

And especially tell how you are going to stop every one of these schemes with your handgun.

Nobody said any particular scheme can be stopped with a legally-carried handgun, just that the alternative is that NO such schemes have to worry about an armed citizen intervening in a criminal or terrorist attack. In the US, as many as 2.5 million crimes per year are thwarted by armed citizens, some 60 percent of the time merely by displaying the weapon without discharging it. Ban guns and there would, of course, be 2.5 million MORE victims each year.

[MiM]

Except that it doesn't happen.

Then again we can re-quote the differences in gun related crime in Europe vs the US. But I guess that's only due to Americans being pathologically violent

Nobody said any particular scheme can be stopped with a legally-carried handgun, just that the alternative is that NO such schemes have to worry about an armed citizen intervening in a criminal or terrorist attack. In the US, as many as 2.5 million crimes per year are thwarted by armed citizens, some 60 percent of the time merely by displaying the weapon without discharging it. Ban guns and there would, of course, be 2.5 million MORE victims each year.

But you where the first to mention all these (unspecified) different attack methods in your argumentation to allow guns. Then please tell us how an alert citizen with a gun is likely to notice and stop at least the gasoline bomb to be thrown, not to mention the 999 other methods you where referring to.