Norway Loony. Why the surprise?

[Robert_S]

I was just reading about some farms that are barely profitable yet the land they sit on is worth millions. You can't just will that to your kids.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of the old saying about the aristocracy and potatoes...

[MrJonno]

Only the extremely rich pay inheritance tax in the US and in the UK its a bit more middle class (assets over £325k /$500k). Quite simply with the housing shortage we have in the UK it should be the norm for people to sell their 3 bedroom houses and move into smaller flats to pay for their care in their old age not to rely on pensions and welfare payments. Having the state subsidise your inheritance to your kids is appalling (and is what effectively happens at the moment)

[Cormac]

Inheritance tax .... capitalist esp libertarian economics are based on this idea that the rich have earned it , it does not work if you can inherit large sums of loot . The meritocracy can not rise if the children of the prosperous not only have all the advantages of health and education contacts etc but are allowed to inherit wealth too . Inheritance is a major stumbling block to a fair society. Why do you think that in- bred sons of the aristocracy should be handed vast sums of loot when they have managed to fail at some of the best schools in the country ?


BTW I'm playing devils advocate here to some degree .

I'll give two cases:

1. Working class family, who manage to purchase their council house through hard graft and sacrifice. House is left to only child. Inheritance tax immediately payable. Child can no longer afford to keep the house, and loses large chunk of value in tax to government. Then can't afford another house in the area.

2. Me. I earn above average, (but not spectacular income) because I have acquired 10 different qualifications since I left school, and I have gone a long way out of my way to get experience that makes me reasonably useful. I have worked away from home for extended periods, away from my wife and children. My wife and I did not benefit massively from the recent boom. In fact, through most of it we struggle to pay our mortgage, and rarely ever had extra cash to buy stuff like new clothes, holidays, etc. (My wife bought clothes a bit more regularly than me). 11 years ago, I bought a house that I lived in for a while - however, due to work I had to move. It has been rented for most of the last 7 years. At no time has the rent made more than the mortgage, and there have been extended periods of no occupancy. This property is nearly in negative equity. After I got married, my wife and I bought a family home (now substantially in negative equity). So, we have two properties that we scrimp and save to keep. At the moment, the second house is my pension, and it is the primary inheritance that I will wish to leave to my kids.

In buying these houses, I paid over 7% stamp duty. This is a lot when you consider the average house price during that period was approx 380K.This is a direct property tax, usually paid out of a mortgage loan, which means that it costs me 14%+ when the interest is inluded.

In your approach, the state would steal this from me and my family, on some nonsensical pretext of social justice.

Inheritance taxes don't impact on the rich, because their assets are largely very fluid, and will be moved out of a jurisdiction at the first sniff of so-called "wealth tax". The only people they really get are people who have had to work for what they've got

[Cormac]

I was just reading about some farms that are barely profitable yet the land they sit on is worth millions. You can't just will that to your kids.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of the old saying about the aristocracy and potatoes...

Why can't you just will that to the kids?

But with inheritance taxes, it is bye bye farm. (and noone will be able to buy it for agriculture, as the possibility of repaying the purchase loan is highly unlikely).

[Cormac]

Only the extremely rich pay inheritance tax in the US and in the UK its a bit more middle class (assets over £325k /$500k). Quite simply with the housing shortage we have in the UK it should be the norm for people to sell their 3 bedroom houses and move into smaller flats to pay for their care in their old age not to rely on pensions and welfare payments. Having the state subsidise your inheritance to your kids is appalling (and is what effectively happens at the moment)

The people you're talking about have paid:

1. For the social welfare of others for approx 45 years
2. For the healthcare of others for approx 45 years
3. For the geriatric care of others for approx 45 years

In return for this, the state promised them state pensions and good care in their retirement.

But this is typical selfish leftist thinking. Take, take, take. Despise the "rich" and the "middle-class", (who, incidentally, pay for everything!)

Just give us your money to squander, and then fuck off and die in squalor.

[Robert_S]

I was just reading about some farms that are barely profitable yet the land they sit on is worth millions. You can't just will that to your kids.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of the old saying about the aristocracy and potatoes...

Why can't you just will that to the kids?

Because you're willing them a tax bill as well.

But with inheritance taxes, it is bye bye farm. (and noone will be able to buy it for agriculture, as the possibility of repaying the purchase loan is highly unlikely).

Enter developers and more McMansions.

[mistermack]

As far as I'm concerned, if a man goes out and works ten hours a day on minimum wage, and is expected to pay tax on what he earns, then inheritances should be taxed AT LEAST at the same rate as that.
Income is income, whether it comes from your parents, or an employer.
Is it desirable for all of the capital to end up in a few hands, and for everybody else to work for those lucky enough to inherit? Because that is exactly what is happening at the moment.
Even Abe Lincoln warned that all of the capital would end up in a few hands, and america would not stand for it. That's what's happening, but just like the banks, nothing will be done, until the system collapses.

[sandinista]

Even Abe Lincoln warned that all of the capital would end up in a few hands, and america would not stand for it. That's what's happening, but just like the banks, nothing will be done, until the system collapses.

America not only stands for it, they apparently love it. Why else elect the republicrats?

[Feck]

Ok the other side (an example )..... i've worked hard I've had to, I've dragged my way out of relative poverty I've paid tax on what I earned and still managed to buy a nice family home but if I leave it to my son it will be valued and he will have to pay a huge amount of tax on it meaning he will either have to be wealthy before I die or sell the family home to pay tax . If I had spent the money I earned on material things I would have only paid sales tax If I had spent it on holidays Then it would not even been taxed in this country I made a decision to save money and invest in my family I worked all those hours and now they will take what I have made for my family away from them ... it's not fair

[laklak]

I think by this point the idea that that rich get rich by their own merits is as believable as our good friend the sky god. I doubt any rational person believes this, nothing but propaganda (by the rich no less).

Hmm. I think Roman Abramovich, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Sergey Brin, Oprah Winfrey, Richard Branson, J.K. Rowling, Mark Zucherberg, Dustin Moscovitz and the other 680 self-made billionaires in the world (according to MSN Money) might disagree with that.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Re ... chest.aspx

Here's the definitive list of the worlds billionaires, from Forbes. Take a look and tell me these people don't work, that it's all Daddy's money. Seriously. Just browse the list.
http://www.forbes.com/wealth/billionaires/list

Of course then there are the Donald Trumps of the world, who started out unfairly with a few millions of daddy's money and turned it into a paltry billion. But he didn't do any actual work, anyone could do that, right?

And then there's the little guys like my Dad, who started a civil engineering company and worked until he was 80. He was worth maybe 3 or 4 million, which isn't rich but isn't bad. However, there are a LOT of people in the world that would consider him rich. He worked for his money, goddamned hard for it. He also employed about 40 people, and could have been one fuck of a lot richer if he hadn't gone without a salary or any sort of remuneration through every single recession in the last 40 years while not laying anyone off. Yeah, rich fucking lazy asshole, ought to tax that son of a bitch out of existence, who the fuck does he think he is, driving a 10 year old Jag and buying a sailboat?

I know quite a few relatively wealthy people, worth anywhere from a couple of mil to maybe 150 mil. Every single one of them, without exception, works like a goddamned dog. So the idea that the "rich" don't work for their money is just bullshit, sour grapes from people without the talent, ambition or drive to make that kind of money themselves.

[sandinista]

Hmm. I think Roman Abramovich, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Sergey Brin, Oprah Winfrey, Richard Branson, J.K. Rowling, Mark Zucherberg, Dustin Moscovitz and the other 680 self-made billionaires in the world (according to MSN Money) might disagree with that.

I read the article and would like the definition of "self made" billionares better defined. I would doubt many come from the worlds slums, I would also doubt many are non-white. I don't take much stock in MSN money articles, especially since they have a stake in making out that "anyone" can become a billionare. Exceptions that prove the rule.

I know quite a few relatively wealthy people, worth anywhere from a couple of mil to maybe 150 mil. Every single one of them, without exception, works like a goddamned dog.

On the other side of the coin, there are far, far more people who work much harder and live in abject poverty.

So the idea that the "rich" don't work for their money is just bullshit, sour grapes from people without the talent, ambition or drive to make that kind of money themselves.

Of course there are plenty of rich people who don't work hard at all. The fact is, the system is slanted, and certain people have an advantage under capitalism to become wealthy. Namely, white upper class people. It would take much more than an MSN money article to convince me otherwise.

[MrJonno]

Only the extremely rich pay inheritance tax in the US and in the UK its a bit more middle class (assets over £325k /$500k). Quite simply with the housing shortage we have in the UK it should be the norm for people to sell their 3 bedroom houses and move into smaller flats to pay for their care in their old age not to rely on pensions and welfare payments. Having the state subsidise your inheritance to your kids is appalling (and is what effectively happens at the moment)

The people you're talking about have paid:

1. For the social welfare of others for approx 45 years
2. For the healthcare of others for approx 45 years
3. For the geriatric care of others for approx 45 years

In return for this, the state promised them state pensions and good care in their retirement.

But this is typical selfish leftist thinking. Take, take, take. Despise the "rich" and the "middle-class", (who, incidentally, pay for everything!)

Just give us your money to squander, and then fuck off and die in squalor.

The main way people over the last few years have made money is buy a house, campaign to not allow anyone end to build any (green belt) , watch house shoot up in price so no one else can afford to live anywhere, then expect their kids to inherit house while claiming large amounts of money of the state.

Typical rightish thinking do fuck all work and then expect to inherit large amounts of money of your parents.

Inheritance tax should be 100% above £200k, and I would put it near that for capital gains taxes on any profits on houses even while you are alive

[Tyrannical]

In the West, most people are "poor" because they are some combination of lazy, stupid, or criminally inclined.

[Cormac]

Only the extremely rich pay inheritance tax in the US and in the UK its a bit more middle class (assets over £325k /$500k). Quite simply with the housing shortage we have in the UK it should be the norm for people to sell their 3 bedroom houses and move into smaller flats to pay for their care in their old age not to rely on pensions and welfare payments. Having the state subsidise your inheritance to your kids is appalling (and is what effectively happens at the moment)

The people you're talking about have paid:

1. For the social welfare of others for approx 45 years
2. For the healthcare of others for approx 45 years
3. For the geriatric care of others for approx 45 years

In return for this, the state promised them state pensions and good care in their retirement.

But this is typical selfish leftist thinking. Take, take, take. Despise the "rich" and the "middle-class", (who, incidentally, pay for everything!)

Just give us your money to squander, and then fuck off and die in squalor.

The main way people over the last few years have made money is buy a house, campaign to not allow anyone end to build any (green belt) , watch house shoot up in price so no one else can afford to live anywhere, then expect their kids to inherit house while claiming large amounts of money of the state.

Typical rightish thinking do fuck all work and then expect to inherit large amounts of money of your parents.

Inheritance tax should be 100% above £200k, and I would put it near that for capital gains taxes on any profits on houses even while you are alive

First off, you've not addressed my argument.

Secondly, what you've said is unmitigated bollox. In point of fact, the way corrupt people made unjustified money was to defraud elderly farmers by buying their land at agricultural prices, and then conspiring with planners to have this land rezoned as development land. The land was then flipped on at 10 times the price paid to the farmer. Sometimes the flip was already a done deal before the farmer was even paid his paltry bit.

Apart from anything else, it is Town Planners that seek to limit urban sprawl, because the wider an urban area gets, the more countryside that is eaten up, and the more expensive it is to run services such as water, electricity, sewage, public transport, healthcare, etc.

The major distorting factor in the housing market over the last 15 years was the unprecedentedly low interest rate, and the fact that a baby boom generation arrived at the same time onto the housing markets.

Property values will follow the law of supply and demand, and prices will rise and fall, (but generally will trend upwards with inflation).

AND finally - people who have some wealth aren't taking vast sums from the state. They are getting their just return for having spent 45 years of their life providing financial support to the state. What part of this don't you understand?

[Cormac]

Typical rightish thinking do fuck all work and then expect to inherit large amounts of money of your parents.

I'm willing to bet that I work harder than you.

You have a delusion that there is a vast cohort of people out there with vast wealth. Even if there were, it is still not ethically justifiable to simply take their money because they have a lot of it. (There may be justification for higher taxation, but it doesn't lie in the fact that someone just happens to be wealthy).

Inheritance tax should be 100% above £200k, and I would put it near that for capital gains taxes on any profits on houses even while you are alive

By what right should the state be entitled to take money from people like that?

And incidentally, all these "wealth" taxes that you espouse are absolutely self-defeating. The impact of such tax law is that people are no longer motivated to work to improve the lot of their family.

If I cannot generate additional benefits for my family by extra effort, why would I make extra effort? Why should I do a single bit more than the guy next door, if I'm not allowed to earn more and provide more to my children.

Please explain what the motivation to work is in your 100% tax society?