Norway Loony. Why the surprise?

[Seth]

While I don't like gun nuts, and hate right wing loonies, I don't understand why people are so amazed at what's happened.

Many European countries are being swamped with immigrants. It is much too fast, and too far. And what really enrages people, is that they have never been asked about this.

Surely a social and racial experiment like this should be put to a referendum, not slipped in gradually and quietly under the counter? If the people have voted for it, then that's fair enough. You give way to the majority. But being lied to, and conned, and called names if you complain, is bound to make people crack in the end.

This guy really thought he was starting something. He is mental, but if it all keeps going on, it might come true.

Nobody can blame the immigrants for wanting to come, and integration should be encouraged all of the time, but I say that the unrestrained immigration should stop now, if we don't want to see more of the same.

On a more serious note, if there was a chance of getting the people in a democracy to change course on immigration, then why didn't this loony go and work on that kind of project? I'm guessing because on some level he knows that not enough people share his views to make for much of a movement, but couldn't really accept the fact. So he slipped slowly away from humanity and isolated himself from anyone who would be willing to say "Hey, you're kinda losing the plot here" as his grip shifted from reality to twisted dogmas because they had long ago said their piece, or not, and moved on.

So, that's my conjecture. Lone gunman is lone.

I think that his complaint was that the socialist/leftist government of Norway was ignoring the threat of radical Islam, and that the government itself had been fatally infected with Marxism and was unresponsive to the rights of the people of Norway and that the only way to retake the government from the Marxists was to start a civil war against both Marxism and radical Islam. I suspect that there are a good many nationalists and Islamophobes who agree with his conclusions if not his methods in Norway and the rest of Europe. At least that's what he evidently thought.

[Seth]

How much do you know about Norwegian immigration policies? Like I just pointed out in the Norway blast thread, we have the highest rate of employment among our immigrations in all of the OECD countries. I'm sure we could do better, but to say that we're being so reckless politically that we're not really entitled to being "surprised" when we get targetted by a killer over it.

Does the same go for McVeigh and the Unabomber, and by extention the US? What do you say to those who say the same about 9/11? "Why the surprise?"

Me, I agree with those who say "why the surprise" about 9/11. We knew of the threat of Islamic terrorism for a long, long time before 9/11 and we simply ignored it, which is why the perps were able to get on the planes and take them over. The political cost, not to mention the economic cost of preparing for what was inevitable (they told us what they intended and there had been hundreds of attacks on Americans by Islamic terrorists in the years leading up to 9/11) was deemed too great by the government, which didn't want to frighten the proletariat. Some people shouted warnings for years, but they went unheard or were dismissed.

I was not in the least bit surprised when 9/11 happened because I'd been paying attention to the growing threat of Islamofascism and terrorism for many years previously.

I was shocked at the magnitude of the attack, primarily by the collapse, but I was not surprised there was an attack on US soil, as the radical Islamists had been promising such an attack for years. Frankly, I expected a dirty bomb, a nuke, or a bioterror attack, not airliners as bombs.

And no, I was not surprised by McVeigh either, but again was shocked at the magnitude of the attack. I suspect McVeigh himself was surprised at the magnitude of the collapse in Oklahoma City. He wasn't a structural engineer, and that's what it took to figure out why the building did collapse, and it was a very unique set of design parameters that caused it to happen.

People who pay attention to international geopolitics and what's actually going on in the world have know for a long time that Islamic terrorism is a serious and growing threat worldwide. They also know that there are domestic terrorists with grudges out there in every nation.

[devogue]

Why couldn't he just shoot fucking teapots to get it out of his system?

Or join the military and go over there and fight the Muslim extremist forces...

Fuck that. They return fire.

[Coito ergo sum]

How much do you know about Norwegian immigration policies? Like I just pointed out in the Norway blast thread, we have the highest rate of employment among our immigrations in all of the OECD countries. I'm sure we could do better, but to say that we're being so reckless politically that we're not really entitled to being "surprised" when we get targetted by a killer over it.

Does the same go for McVeigh and the Unabomber, and by extention the US? What do you say to those who say the same about 9/11? "Why the surprise?"

First - are the people you're directing that question here Americans? I think mistermack is not, for example. Not sure about some of the others.

As an American, I do not at all say that Norwegians shouldn't feel "surprised." I think it's perfectly legitimate for Norwegians to be surprised that some guy who grew up in Norway during Norways wealthiest time in its history.

As for being surprised by McVeigh and the Unabomber - or 9/11 - to me, I wasn't "surprised." Outraged, yes. Upset, yes. Not surprised, though. Wackos exist and will do these extreme things. 9/11 we saw coming for 8 years, from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and all the chatter in the Islamic world about bringing their shit to our doorstep. We saw it coming, and did nothing of substance from 1993 to 2001. That was our failing. There were calls in the mid-to-late 1990's about Islamic terror attacks on US soil - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/ ... 7659.shtml We should have known and should not have been "surprised."

[mistermack]

This is like blaming the rape victim for the rape. Norway wore too short a skirt, you say?

Well, firstly it pays to be aware that there are rapists out there, and to take precautions. In a weird twist, muslim immigrants are responsible for a far higher proportion of rapes in Britain than their numbers would cause.

But secondly, I'm not saying that Norway wore too short a skirt. In this instance, they didn't get a choice in what to wear. The skirt was chosen for them, without any consultation.

[Rum]

The UK wet through a period of huge immigration in the 1960s and 70s, encouraged by governments of the time because we were short of labour for the most low paid jobs. Millions came from the Caribbean and the Indian sub-continent.

It wasn't trouble free, but actually when you look at how generally speaking harmonious race relations are here now I would suggest they offer a lesson.

Here, the latest 'wave' of immigration is due to the open borders of the EU. Arguable this has caused more social tension than immigration of people of a very different ethnic and religious backgrounds did three or more decades ago.

[mistermack]

How much do you know about Norwegian immigration policies? Like I just pointed out in the Norway blast thread, we have the highest rate of employment among our immigrations in all of the OECD countries. I'm sure we could do better, but to say that we're being so reckless politically that we're not really entitled to being "surprised" when we get targetted by a killer over it.

"

It's not the employment rate among immigrants that I referred to.
It's the effect on the wages of the unskilled, and hence their life-prospects.

The gap between the rich and poor is widening, and it's down to unskilled immigration.
It's great for the rich, and retired, like me, but very bad for the young and the poor.

[mistermack]

Does the same go for McVeigh and the Unabomber, and by extention the US? What do you say to those who say the same about 9/11? "Why the surprise?"

I have said something very like that. The 9/11 attack was brewing, and I for one was not at all surprised.
And I've argued on here that it was George Bush's Israel policy that led to it.

[Robert_S]

Does the same go for McVeigh and the Unabomber, and by extention the US? What do you say to those who say the same about 9/11? "Why the surprise?"

I have said something very like that. The 9/11 attack was brewing, and I for one was not at all surprised.
And I've argued on here that it was George Bush's Israel policy that led to it.

I blame the Umayyad Caliphate.

[Eriku]

I take the point that it may have been expected that Islamist radicals had a go at the twin towers... I'm more against the tone that suggests that Norway's walked into this. Mistermack, those who want to shut up the borders are not in majority in Norway... If that were the case and if they desperately felt we needed to change that, we'd have the Progress Party as the biggest party.

Secondly, I thought mistermack was American, but those examples were also what first came to mind. I just gave him other examples to see whether he adopted the same view of those atrocities.

Again, I ask you mistermack, how much is your finger on the Norwegian political and social pulse on these issues? Because saying them without much to base it on is bang out of order. It lays the blame at the feet of the Labour Party, and to the general political climate which has made us one of the most functional societies in the world. I won't necessarily say "THE" most functional, as the UN might... But that we're among them is without question.

Unskilled immigration might have every bit as much to do with our strong wages as well as our adhering to the EEC in order for us to be a part of the European market like any EU country. We're also strongly socialist in our foreign policy, which is why we give shelter to so many people from atrocious parts of the world. We do well to remember that where you're born is a fluke, and that there's a reason why people grow up to be the way they are... But nevertheless I think we are in the right to give people a chance, and I work daily with young Afghan immigrants who have no family in this country... Some arrive completely illiterate, even in their own language, and everybody comes here with a poor education with regards to history, science, maths and the like. Still I've seen tremendous progress in the ones I've worked with, some of whom are currently working during the summer, and impressing the ones they work for.

Breivik and those who find legitimacy in his claims, if not his actions, want to put a halt to this and to leave the third world to its fate... I'm proud that we refuse to do that.

[mistermack]

The UK wet through a period of huge immigration in the 1960s and 70s, encouraged by governments of the time because we were short of labour for the most low paid jobs. Millions came from the Caribbean and the Indian sub-continent.

It wasn't trouble free, but actually when you look at how generally speaking harmonious race relations are here now I would suggest they offer a lesson.

Here, the latest 'wave' of immigration is due to the open borders of the EU. Arguable this has caused more social tension than immigration of people of a very different ethnic and religious backgrounds did three or more decades ago.

Well, I'm saying, "why did we bother"? That's the lesson.
Who is better off, apart from the immigrants?

Now people can't get jobs, they have to lock their houses, their cars, and their bicycles, and pick up their daughters from night clubs.
The country is massively over populated. The tarmac is spreading everywhere. A building plot costs a lifetime's savings.

All of this is because of immigration.

There are no lessons to be learned here. Edit : Well, there are, but not 'do like we did'.

[Pensioner]

Well said Eriku, well this commie Marxist bastard agrees with you anyway.

[mistermack]

Eriku, you haven't seen anything yet. If you think Norway can get away with high immigration, you may be right. But it's not looking good at the moment.
Norway isn't typical, because I believe the country is oil rich at the moment.
But just wait till things get a bit less rosy, that's when the trouble really starts.

You say that Norwegians have somehow chosen this by their votes.
I'm saying it's not true, they haven't had a proper choice. If they had chosen to have lots of immigrants, I wouldn't have posted, would I?

I can't believe that you can blythely ignore the lessons of Northern Ireland, or Kosovo, and just pretend that people will happily blend together.

And my question is, who does immigration actually benefit?

[b.ternarius]

I'm with Eriku.

Mistermack, most of the social ills you talk about probably have little to do with immigration. Overpopulation and the loss of vast numbers of low skill jobs through mechanisation and technology are very likely more to blame for unrest and unemployment rates.

People can happily blend together, if they are fat and happy and large segments of the population don't feel ignored and disenfranchised.

[mistermack]

I'm with Eriku.

Mistermack, most of the social ills you talk about probably have little to do with immigration. Overpopulation and the loss of vast numbers of low skill jobs through mechanisation and technology are very likely more to blame for unrest and unemployment rates.

People can happily blend together, if they are fat and happy and large segments of the population don't feel ignored and disenfranchised.

Well, you've supplied your own answers.
Overpopulation is because of immigration. In this country anyway. Without immigration, this country would have a far lower population than it has, and it would be still falling. Mechanisation brings new jobs, as well as removing old ones.

The young would be much in demand, unskilled or not, if we hadn't had immigration and would be able to afford a decent start to their adult life.

And yes, I agree people CAN blend happily together (reasonably), like in the US and Australia, but they are ALL immigrants in those countries, and it hasn't been so great for the indiginous people, has it?
.