Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

[chalkers]

...
Just a tad more background; the idea of the closure was that RichardDawkins.net was going to transition to RDFRS's US site. The ideas of having "camel toe" threads wasn't palatable to Foundation management. So the forum in it's current state had to go before the transition.
...

That was all cleared out in Oct. 2008 during the Great PurgeTM, which means that it is simply not relevant to the terminal episode of early 2010 - or the 6 months or so that preceded it. And the action by RD back in 2008 was not proactive, but reactive, and very sudden. In other words, I fail to see any connection.

Sorry, klr, your statement is factually incorrect. Camel toes were present. Back in Jan-Feb 2010 "camel toe" was one of the key terms coming in on Google Analytics for http://forum.richarddawkins.net. In fact it was more popular term that richarddawkins as all one word. We followed the trail and there were camel toes...fact. If you don't believe me I am sure you can take it up with the current custodian, they can run a report and show you.

So, best approach is:

Hi guys - we've been looking at our Analytics - it turns out we're showing up for Camel Toe. This is not something we want associated with our site or our foundation. Therefore, we will, within 5 days, be removing this content from the site.

Should you wish to get a copy of this content, please email this address:

Incidentally, I note that to find camel toe on the dawkins site, you'd have had to search Google for richarddawkins.net AND camel toe. A general search on camel toe would return hundreds and hundreds of pages of pornography sites, and no doubt, Wikipedia, before it would return ANY result from richarddawkins.net. So, the issue can't really have been so urgent.

Well there wasn't a boolean operator so it was "camel toe" not "site:richarddawkins.net camel toe". It may not have been just Google, and potentially porn sites don't come up when you have safe search on so the forum could be highly ranked in those circumstances. As for urgency you'd have to take that up with the management. They do like making mountains out of molehills.

Furthermore, I suspect that any content that was graphic was behind a private part of the forum, and was not publicly accessible.

So, the issue would have been less urgent.

A competent understanding of Analytics and how to read and understand them, would possibly have allowed a more measured and prudent approach to redacting the content.

I don't think you know how hard it was to be measured when management was flapping. I think you should take over their job. You seem more qualified.

But as I say Richard apologised for the whole team.

[chalkers]

Welcome to Rationalia, chalkers. Hope you enjoy your time here! You can find our guidelines here if you've not already had a chance to peruse.

Thank you Thinking Aloud.

[borealis]

[klr]

...
Just a tad more background; the idea of the closure was that RichardDawkins.net was going to transition to RDFRS's US site. The ideas of having "camel toe" threads wasn't palatable to Foundation management. So the forum in it's current state had to go before the transition.
...

That was all cleared out in Oct. 2008 during the Great PurgeTM, which means that it is simply not relevant to the terminal episode of early 2010 - or the 6 months or so that preceded it. And the action by RD back in 2008 was not proactive, but reactive, and very sudden. In other words, I fail to see any connection.

Sorry, klr, your statement is factually incorrect. Camel toes were present. Back in Jan-Feb 2010 "camel toe" was one of the key terms coming in on Google Analytics for http://forum.richarddawkins.net. In fact it was more popular term that richarddawkins as all one word. We followed the trail and there were camel toes...fact. If you don't believe me I am sure you can take it up with the current custodian, they can run a report and show you.

I was there, I know what happened. Firstly, practically all such material was confined to a non-public area of the forum in the first place, and thus not accessible to any spider or other internet search agent. It would be interesting to know how and when the internet at large became aware of it, since it never generated any publicity, let alone on the scale of the Feb. 2010 episode. Any and all such material was permanently removed from the forum after RD's intervention in Oct. 2008. Thereafter the forum rules of conduct expressly forbade any re-introduction, and the forum staff were very diligent in ensuring same. The (widely mirrored) archive of the publicly available forum content will not show any "objectionable" material in anything other than trace quantities at worst.

And here's something else: Why wasn't RD or Josh (especially) Josh aware of what was happening on the forum? Wouldn't it have been Josh's responsibility in particular to know what was going on in all areas of the website? Including keeping track via Google Analytics and other services? Even if he was utterly ignorant of forum proceedings - and by his own admission he was - shouldn't he still have realised that something was seriously amiss? What on earth was Josh doing during that time?

...
Well there wasn't a boolean operator so it was "camel toe" not "site:richarddawkins.net camel toe". It may not have been just Google, and potentially porn sites don't come up when you have safe search on so the forum could be highly ranked in those circumstances. As for urgency you'd have to take that up with the management. They do like making mountains out of molehills.

I love the smell of back-tracking in the morning ...

[chalkers]

Legitimate, non-snarky question, Andrew: What do you hope to gain by posting here? (same goes for Josh as well, though I don't expect you to answer for him). I'm not really seeing the point of it. This whole issue was dead until Josh and you resurrected it.

I think Josh resurrected it, and I felt it's wounds with my hands.

Erm...I don't have any hopes anymore, they're all gone.

What should I be getting out of this

[PsychoSerenity]

1. The traffic to the Dawkins site has dropped

Funny the site enjoyed increasing traffic and when I left we just celebrated highest traffic on RichardDawkins.net. Would love to see the source of your information Mr Lawyer.

[charlou]

For some it comes naturally, but others need all the help they can get ...

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[Cormac]

I was however, a member of Richard's website and forum from the very start. I stopped posting there just before the chaos ensued, in forum meltdown #6 (the final one).

I'm a lawyer, and I'm also an experienced business manager. I've managed very large scale commercial websites and communities on a similar scale to the RDF site at its peak.

Every single change implemented on the RDF site was done in an absolutely cack-handed and incompetent manner. There was a blatant disdain for the membership, and a complete lack of concern for how changes would impact them.

I guarantee you, that had even the most rudimentary standard change management techniques been applied, then there would have been no significant backlash, and no web-wide controversy would have ensued.

As an executive who has run operations of a much larger scale, and with much bigger teams, I would have fired anyone involved in running the site in a heartbeat, at the very first scandal way back in the first year of operation.

Good on you. You're probably right. Want a badge? But the person who's been running the site hasn't been sacked. That person was hiding in the shadows, for some reason, until December 2009, and this is the same person spear-heading this lawsuit.

1. The traffic to the Dawkins site has dropped

Funny the site enjoyed increasing traffic and when I left we just celebrated highest traffic on RichardDawkins.net. Would love to see the source of your information Mr Lawyer.

2. Richard's brand has been irrevocably tarnished amongst many many atheists. (And I still like Richard by the way)

Well his comments on Phayrangula, and this lawsuit ain't helping either. It looks like he'd have hurt his brand by himself without the aide of bad change management.

3. What could have grown into a coherent political movement has been fractured and splintered

Give me a break - this is what happens with all groups. Look at christianity or even any of denominations like mormons. People fall out all the time and move on and try and change and control the world under a slightly different, ideological banner.

4. All of this was done in full public glare, and was jumped on with glee by the enemies of reason

Oh no! Them people in our out-group are saying bad things about people in my in-group. This has never happened before.

It was a handful of forum members who wanted press coverage of this "forum meltdown". Richard and the management didn't tweet at the press, wrote to journalists; it was the forum members. They were committing "community" suicide, if that's even a thing.

I can tell we're going to get along swimmingly.

You've misunderstood completely.

I'll try to make it easy for you.

Richard set out on this path for the purpose of explaining atheism, and to attempt to break down the strangle-hold of religion on human society.

This cannot be done by one person, alone, in their living room. Therefore, he must communicate with the general public.

This started with a book, that many people found, and continue to find inspiring.

The success of that book led to the creation of a website.

That website attracted many people in, due to the success of the book, and Richard's promotion of it.

That website became more and more successful, due to two drivers:

1. Richard's ongoing promotion of his book and the ideas of secular philosophy and science.
2. The large number of members, who posted large volumes.

The problem with this kind of thing playing out in public is that it directly impacts on the ability to achieve the goals of the foundation. It gives ammunition to those who already oppose that mission, and allows them to fling mud (which will stick).

Regarding your last post.

You're dead wrong characterising it as a "handful of members" who were upset. It was a very large number.

Secondly, the whole point is that it is the core role of the site management team to manage exactly these kinds of issues, and to prevent them from blowing up. This is the fundamental failure of website and organisational management that occurred.

Anyone who has worked with large scale forums knows that history of forum dramas, splits, and the like. However, in a context where there is either a political mission (like the Foundation's mission), or a business for that matter, it is the cardinal sin to lose control of matters in this way.

It is a sign of continued failure that you are still in denial about this fact. The responsibility for what occurred and ALL of the consequences and negative publicity that flowed belongs squarely with the management team, and nobody else.

[Feck]

For some it comes naturally, but others need all the help they can get ...

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

You know it's going to be a serious blow to all the devotees of the ass to mouth thread that they were beaten by the camel toe thread ... seriously .

[Cormac]

...
Just a tad more background; the idea of the closure was that RichardDawkins.net was going to transition to RDFRS's US site. The ideas of having "camel toe" threads wasn't palatable to Foundation management. So the forum in it's current state had to go before the transition.
...

That was all cleared out in Oct. 2008 during the Great PurgeTM, which means that it is simply not relevant to the terminal episode of early 2010 - or the 6 months or so that preceded it. And the action by RD back in 2008 was not proactive, but reactive, and very sudden. In other words, I fail to see any connection.

Sorry, klr, your statement is factually incorrect. Camel toes were present. Back in Jan-Feb 2010 "camel toe" was one of the key terms coming in on Google Analytics for http://forum.richarddawkins.net. In fact it was more popular term that richarddawkins as all one word. We followed the trail and there were camel toes...fact. If you don't believe me I am sure you can take it up with the current custodian, they can run a report and show you.

So, best approach is:

Hi guys - we've been looking at our Analytics - it turns out we're showing up for Camel Toe. This is not something we want associated with our site or our foundation. Therefore, we will, within 5 days, be removing this content from the site.

Should you wish to get a copy of this content, please email this address:

Incidentally, I note that to find camel toe on the dawkins site, you'd have had to search Google for richarddawkins.net AND camel toe. A general search on camel toe would return hundreds and hundreds of pages of pornography sites, and no doubt, Wikipedia, before it would return ANY result from richarddawkins.net. So, the issue can't really have been so urgent.

Well there wasn't a boolean operator so it was "camel toe" not "site:richarddawkins.net camel toe". It may not have been just Google, and potentially porn sites don't come up when you have safe search on so the forum could be highly ranked in those circumstances. As for urgency you'd have to take that up with the management. They do like making mountains out of molehills.

Furthermore, I suspect that any content that was graphic was behind a private part of the forum, and was not publicly accessible.

So, the issue would have been less urgent.

A competent understanding of Analytics and how to read and understand them, would possibly have allowed a more measured and prudent approach to redacting the content.

I don't think you know how hard it was to be measured when management was flapping. I think you should take over their job. You seem more qualified.

But as I say Richard apologised for the whole team.

RIchard can apologise for the whole team. But I can accept part or all of that, as I see fit.

But as I recall, Richard's apology for the whole team came before the breakdown in his relationship with Josh.

For the record, I don't think Richard is completely innocent in all this. But I do give him a break and accept his apology.

[chalkers]

...
Just a tad more background; the idea of the closure was that RichardDawkins.net was going to transition to RDFRS's US site. The ideas of having "camel toe" threads wasn't palatable to Foundation management. So the forum in it's current state had to go before the transition.
...

That was all cleared out in Oct. 2008 during the Great PurgeTM, which means that it is simply not relevant to the terminal episode of early 2010 - or the 6 months or so that preceded it. And the action by RD back in 2008 was not proactive, but reactive, and very sudden. In other words, I fail to see any connection.

Sorry, klr, your statement is factually incorrect. Camel toes were present. Back in Jan-Feb 2010 "camel toe" was one of the key terms coming in on Google Analytics for http://forum.richarddawkins.net. In fact it was more popular term that richarddawkins as all one word. We followed the trail and there were camel toes...fact. If you don't believe me I am sure you can take it up with the current custodian, they can run a report and show you.

I was there, I know what happened. Firstly, practically all such material was confined to a non-public area of the forum in the first place, and thus not accessible to any spider or other internet search agent. It would be interesting to know how and when the internet at large became aware of it, since it never generated any publicity, let alone on the scale of the Feb. 2010 episode. Any and all such material was permanently removed from the forum after RD's intervention in Oct. 2008. Thereafter the forum rules of conduct expressly forbade any re-introduction, and the forum staff were very diligent in ensuring same. The (widely mirrored) archive of the publicly available forum content will not show any "objectionable" material in anything other than trace quantities at worst.

And here's something else: Why wasn't RD or Josh (especially) Josh aware of what was happening on the forum? Wouldn't it have been Josh's responsibility in particular to know what was going on in all areas of the website? Including keeping track via Google Analytics and other services? Even if he was utterly ignorant of forum proceedings - and by his own admission he was - shouldn't he still have realised that something was seriously amiss? What on earth was Josh doing during that time?

Keep asking. I wonder who will answer! Are you asking the right question?

...
Well there wasn't a boolean operator so it was "camel toe" not "site:richarddawkins.net camel toe". It may not have been just Google, and potentially porn sites don't come up when you have safe search on so the forum could be highly ranked in those circumstances. As for urgency you'd have to take that up with the management. They do like making mountains out of molehills.

I love the smell of back-tracking in the morning ...

"camel toe" was the search term and it was on public thread and there were images.

[Thinking Aloud]

I had to look up "Camel Toe". And now I'm surprised such a soft-core, non-porn, not-remotely-titillating thing could possibly have caused so much angst. Not when there were more pressing issues such as what certain bodily fluids tasted like.

Seriously.

[Ronja]

Thanks, Cormac. Your analysis about why and how RDN failed (in two semi-long posts, a few posts above) about sums it up IMO, too.

Andrew (if it is you): when you're doing a job, you're supposed to know how to do it, or learn if you don't already know - read, ask questions, try things out (small scale) etc. That is called professionalism. If then someone "higher up" tells you to do your job in a shitty/unprofessional way, you tell them (first nicely, then more forcefully) what the likely negative consequences of such actions will be, and if they don't believe you, you go to their boss. That, too, is called professionalism - not allowing your organization or your client to shoot themselves in the foot. If nobody believes your well-founded professional opinion - get the hell out, and fast. No (desk) job is worth taking the bullet for your bosses, IMO. Competent people will always find new jobs, no point in staying in bed with people who can tarnish your professional reputation, too, while making mistakes you cannot stop them from making, if they are truly determined.

Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

[charlou]

For some it comes naturally, but others need all the help they can get ...

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

You know it's going to be a serious blow to all the devotees of the ass to mouth thread that they were beaten by the camel toe thread ... seriously .

But felching is a reputable service ...





(Hehehehehe hehe hehehehehehehehe hehe hehe hehe hehehehe...

hehehehe hehe hehehehehehehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehe....

You said "blow"... hehe hehe hehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehehe hehehe hehe hehe hehe hehe....)

[Thinking Aloud]