Dawkins: At War With The Feminists?

[borealis]

I completely agree PZ Myers with this issue.

Richard, don't be a dick.

[Lozzer]

Either way, Dawkin's rationalising her encounter through his reasoning of 'relativity' kinda' misses the point, and you could do the same with any matter of dignity to make it seem 'harmless'.

If the convention was in Birmingham, and an attendee was stabbed, only to complain: would Richard launch a ridiculing tirade about how 'stab wounds' are nothing in comparison to 'capital punishment'? It ain't fucking sequential, and misses the point. Yeah, someone made a particularly awkward sexual advance towards her in a lift, but it was hardly an 'objectifying' of women, or even more. I sympathise with her 'plight', and I imagine it made her feel uncomfortable, but it's a storm in a tea cup, really. Had the guy in the lift asked her if he could 'shag her shitless like a rag-doll' then it certainly would be objectifying, but in reality, it was just a faux pas.

[Atheist-Lite]

I've a funny feeling this is revealing somekind of weirdness in the Dawk that some folks don't like? That he's a great writer, yes? That he's a great reader?

[Coito ergo sum]

if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Exactly.

How many women here would not share Stripes' opinion?

How many men here would be so crass as to ask a stranger back to their hotel room for coffee in a lift at 4am?

So we've established, perhaps, that most women would find it off-putting, and that it would be crass to do it. That's a far cry from "misogyny." Maybe he just liked her, found her attractive, had one chance alone with her where he could ask her in private, was a tad tipsy and blundered his way through a failed come on.

The whole idea that this is some anti-feminist, misogynistic, sexist attack on the feminine is ridiculous.

[Coito ergo sum]

Haha. Charlou. It must be something about fantasising about having the 'decision' taken out of your hands. I wonder?? In REALITY, I think I would feel a bit nervous and vulnerable to be propositioned in a lift. In a bar, a club, a supermarket, or any other area with other people milling about, bring it on!!! but for me, if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Context is important. He hadn't just seen Watson in the elevator-- he'd been listening to her talk about sexualization/objectification of women, for hours. How is it not clueless of him to ignore everything she said? If you want a woman not to feel objectified, paying attention to her clearly stated likes and dislikes is a good place to start.

And how is it not clueless of him not to realize that asking someone back to your place has a different effect when it's four in the morning and you're alone in an elevator, versus maybe asking her back at the bar, before she decided to leave? Or at any other point in the long day he'd spent as part of her audience?

Just saw you there, XC-- and...word.

But, is coming on to a woman one finds attractive, even in a clumsy or "inappropriate" manner, to be considered the sexualization/objectification of women? I mean, surely women who don't like to be objectified still might like to ride the baloney pony now and again?

How is it ignoring everything she said to make a clumsy attempt to ask her back to his room for coffer? Maybe he really did want to have a chat and grab a cup of coffee - it was 4am. Lots of people like a bit of coffee when it's late and they've been up all night.

As for the choice of location. He may well have not had an opportunity to talk to her. Maybe he was nervous. Maybe he wound up with her in the elevator purely by chance and thought "what the hell, I'll be nice and try to non-sexually ask her for a cup of java" to show her that he was a modern man who can invite a woman back to his room for something other than banging her. That's "clueless?" Maybe he had no interest in her except for intellectually - she's not that hot anyway, so maybe the guy really did want to have a chat?

I think one needs to make some really big assumptions about this guy in order to question his motives and call him clueless. And, even if he is clueless, and found her attractive but went about it the wrong way asking her in the wrong place at the wrong time - for the love of noGod - was the error of such monumental proportions that he is now to be considered a woman-hating sexist pig? From his clumsy approach, he sounds more like a nerd or a geek who had a couple two many drinks and made a dopey attempt to get to know this chick.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's not all about wailing 'all men are rapists' etc. That would be ridiculous, but I would question the DECISION to ask in a lift, when a more relaxed approach would be to approach someone with other people about. It would be this decision itself that I would find suspect and altogether unpleasant, whether the guy is a lunatic rapist or just a thicko. Both I find highly offensive. Thanks for getting it, XC. Women aren't overreacting and all running around screaming, when they are just expecting a bit of common sense, sensitivity and old fashioned, dare I say it, respect for their feelings.

But, how is a guy, apparently nicely, saying something to the effect of "nice presentation - hey, would you like to come back to my room for coffee?" disrespecting her feelings or being insensitive? Is it something men are supposed to automatically understand that women are petrified of being spoken to in elevators?

I mean - maybe I really do just "don't get it" but the most I can make out of what we've been told about this situation is that the girl would rather not have been propositioned in an elevator, but we don't even know for sure that it was, in fact, even a proposition.

FFS - if the woman was the person who gave the presentation and I liked it, and we happened to find ourselves in an elevator together alone, rather than stand their silently as we rode up floor after floor, I would most likely say something to her. I would say, "Hi! My name is CES, it's very nice to finally meet you. I didn't get a chance to tell you how great your presentation was before." [listen to her response] And, you know what - if I wasn't going right to sleep, and if I was planning on having coffee, I might very well ask her if she'd like a cuppa java, even if I had no interest in her sexually. I truly had no idea that such behavior was frowned upon unless done in public where available escape routes and back-up were within screaming distance.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm a woman whose view of the situation varies from some others I've read. Most of my thoughts on it have been posted at RatSkep.

So, had it been you in the lift, you wouldn't have thought him an insensitive dickhead? Or you wouldn't be disturbed by his behaviour?

Either way, fair enough, your personal view is as valid as anyone's. You seem to be in a small minority of women however. I am not claiming that you are wrong, merely that I would reasonably expect such behaviour to creep out most women and so, personally, I would not act similarly for that reason. If I ever were to drunkenly proposition a minor celebrity in a hotel lift, I would consider myself a dickhead for not appreciating that fact.

Point of fact: there was no overt proposition - he asked her if she would like some coffee. That's fairly important here. If I walk up to a woman who unbeknownst to me has no interest in being hit on, and I say, "Hey baby, wanna go back to my place and bump uglies?" That would be creepy and inappropriate. If I walk up to her and say, "Hello, my name is so-and-so. I saw you from across the room, and I wondered if I could buy you a drink [or cup of coffee]" - that does not appear in the least to be creepy, and I don't think it would matter if the words were said in an elevator. But, apparently, I don't get it.

[Atheist-Lite]

It's not all about wailing 'all men are rapists' etc. That would be ridiculous, but I would question the DECISION to ask in a lift, when a more relaxed approach would be to approach someone with other people about. It would be this decision itself that I would find suspect and altogether unpleasant, whether the guy is a lunatic rapist or just a thicko. Both I find highly offensive. Thanks for getting it, XC. Women aren't overreacting and all running around screaming, when they are just expecting a bit of common sense, sensitivity and old fashioned, dare I say it, respect for their feelings.

But, how is a guy, apparently nicely, saying something to the effect of "nice presentation - hey, would you like to come back to my room for coffee?" disrespecting her feelings or being insensitive? Is it something men are supposed to automatically understand that women are petrified of being spoken to in elevators?

I mean - maybe I really do just "don't get it" but the most I can make out of what we've been told about this situation is that the girl would rather not have been propositioned in an elevator, but we don't even know for sure that it was, in fact, even a proposition.

FFS - if the woman was the person who gave the presentation and I liked it, and we happened to find ourselves in an elevator together alone, rather than stand their silently as we rode up floor after floor, I would most likely say something to her. I would say, "Hi! My name is CES, it's very nice to finally meet you. I didn't get a chance to tell you how great your presentation was before." [listen to her response] And, you know what - if I wasn't going right to sleep, and if I was planning on having coffee, I might very well ask her if she'd like a cuppa java, even if I had no interest in her sexually. I truly had no idea that such behavior was frowned upon unless done in public where available escape routes and back-up were within screaming distance.

thucking eh! that's gotta coito into some horror movie someday?

[Coito ergo sum]

Absolutely FASCINATING...this thing is all over the web...I didn't know. But, I'm reading various opinions on it, and all I can say is, well, fascinating.

The Friendly Atheist chimed in, and from his summary you'd think that the guy sidled up next to this woman and said, "Hey baby, wanna fuck like rabbits back in my room? I got wood standin' here lookin' at ya" and then after she refused, he harassed her with further sexual overtures. http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/07/05/a ... roversial/

I mean - really - he got into an elevator, and asked her for coffee. How is this misogynistic? Why do we even assume that the guy had evil intent? And, even if his intent was to bang her six ways from Sunday....even if that was his intent and he was using the "come up for coffee" euphemism....how is this some affront to womanhood? I agree with Dawkins, man - someone is going to need to calmly explain why exactly what this guy said in the elevator was improper.

So, the Friendly Atheist goes on to discuss what to "do about this," because apparently, women being politely asked to share beverages with men they just met at conventions is something of an ongoing problem. He asks - "So why not just kick out those individuals who are making the women uncomfortable?" Think about that. Why not JUST KICK OUT THOSE INDIVIDUALS? Which individuals? Ones that offer coffee to women? Criminy.... notice , he doesn't say "why not just kick out those individuals who speak to women alone in elevators and ask them for coffee?" He says, "...are making the women uncomfortable..." There is a reason for that. The reason is that hardly anyone really thinks that a guy politely asking a woman for coffee, even if they are alone in an elevator, would be worthy of being kicked out or even "making women uncomfortable." IMHO, anyway - so he uses a more generalized term so as to imply behavior that is far worse than the actual behavior being discussed.

Then, get this, Friendly Atheist says - "There’s not always a smoking gun that points to harassment (kind of like in the Elevator Incident), but incidents like that are not uncommon." Wut wut wut!!!????? "harassment (kind of like in the Elevator..." - HARASSMENT. Really? The guy asking the woman to come for coffee in his room and taking no for an answer immediately is HARASSMENT?? With all due respect. I call bullshit AND shenanigans on that. No fucking way.

Here is another blurb on it:

If the story ended here there would be obvious things to say about it (obvious to me, at least, but not everyone, as will become quite clear). This man may have had nothing but noble intentions, but that doesn’t matter. Being alone in an elevator with a man late at night is uncomfortable for any woman, even if the man is silent. But when he hits on her? There’s no way to avoid a predatory vibe here, and that’s unacceptable. A situation like this can lead to sexual assault; I just read in the news here in Boulder that a few days ago a relatively innocent situation turned into assault. This isn’t some rare event; it happens a lot and most women are all-too painfully aware of it.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... privilege/

Huh...so...let's get this straight... his intentions "don't matter" no matter how noble they are. Point one, men. Your intentions don't matter. The woman's intentions, of course, do matter.

Being alone in an elevator with a man late at night is uncomfortable for ANY woman. So, point number 2 - by getting into an elevator with a woman late at night, you should know - it's "OBVIOUS" if you "get it," that you are making her uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if you stand there silently. By being in the elevator, you are making her uncomfortable. Thus, the only gentlemanly thing to ever do is to let the lady ride up in the elevator alone, and wait for the next one.

Hitting on a woman - anything you say to a woman when you are alone with her is "hitting on her." Even if your intentions (which don't matter) are noble, any pleasantries you offer are to be construed as "hitting on her." And, according to this woman and those who think like her, hitting on a woman is not noble. We'll just take a lesson from medieval chivalry and religious notions of female purity and state that women's sexuality is pure and nice, and that it is ignoble to suggest any desire for sex with a female.

So, understand - if you get into an elevator alone with a woman, you are making her uncomfortable. If you say ANYTHING to her in the elevator, you will be creating a PREDATORY VIBE.

Wow...just...well, wow. Do I "get it?" No. Not that. I don't "get it" that by getting on an elevator at night, it makes any woman uncomfortable and that by talking to her I am likely sending out a predatory vibe. I don't get that, and I also don't get that my intentions don't matter, or that suggesting a social relationship with a woman I don't know is not "noble."

[Atheist-Lite]

Absolutely FASCINATING...this thing is all over the web...I didn't know. But, I'm reading various opinions on it, and all I can say is, well, fascinating.

The Friendly Atheist chimed in, and from his summary you'd think that the guy sidled up next to this woman and said, "Hey baby, wanna fuck like rabbits back in my room? I got wood standin' here lookin' at ya" and then after she refused, he harassed her with further sexual overtures. http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/07/05/a ... roversial/

I mean - really - he got into an elevator, and asked her for coffee. How is this misogynistic? Why do we even assume that the guy had evil intent? And, even if his intent was to bang her six ways from Sunday....even if that was his intent and he was using the "come up for coffee" euphemism....how is this some affront to womanhood? I agree with Dawkins, man - someone is going to need to calmly explain why exactly what this guy said in the elevator was improper.

So, the Friendly Atheist goes on to discuss what to "do about this," because apparently, women being politely asked to share beverages with men they just met at conventions is something of an ongoing problem. He asks - "So why not just kick out those individuals who are making the women uncomfortable?" Think about that. Why not JUST KICK OUT THOSE INDIVIDUALS? Which individuals? Ones that offer coffee to women? Criminy.... notice , he doesn't say "why not just kick out those individuals who speak to women alone in elevators and ask them for coffee?" He says, "...are making the women uncomfortable..." There is a reason for that. The reason is that hardly anyone really thinks that a guy politely asking a woman for coffee, even if they are alone in an elevator, would be worthy of being kicked out or even "making women uncomfortable." IMHO, anyway - so he uses a more generalized term so as to imply behavior that is far worse than the actual behavior being discussed.

Then, get this, Friendly Atheist says - "There’s not always a smoking gun that points to harassment (kind of like in the Elevator Incident), but incidents like that are not uncommon." Wut wut wut!!!????? "harassment (kind of like in the Elevator..." - HARASSMENT. Really? The guy asking the woman to come for coffee in his room and taking no for an answer immediately is HARASSMENT?? With all due respect. I call bullshit AND shenanigans on that. No fucking way.

Here is another blurb on it:

If the story ended here there would be obvious things to say about it (obvious to me, at least, but not everyone, as will become quite clear). This man may have had nothing but noble intentions, but that doesn’t matter. Being alone in an elevator with a man late at night is uncomfortable for any woman, even if the man is silent. But when he hits on her? There’s no way to avoid a predatory vibe here, and that’s unacceptable. A situation like this can lead to sexual assault; I just read in the news here in Boulder that a few days ago a relatively innocent situation turned into assault. This isn’t some rare event; it happens a lot and most women are all-too painfully aware of it.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... privilege/

Huh...so...let's get this straight... his intentions "don't matter" no matter how noble they are. Point one, men. Your intentions don't matter. The woman's intentions, of course, do matter.

Being alone in an elevator with a man late at night is uncomfortable for ANY woman. So, point number 2 - by getting into an elevator with a woman late at night, you should know - it's "OBVIOUS" if you "get it," that you are making her uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if you stand there silently. By being in the elevator, you are making her uncomfortable. Thus, the only gentlemanly thing to ever do is to let the lady ride up in the elevator alone, and wait for the next one.

Hitting on a woman - anything you say to a woman when you are alone with her is "hitting on her." Even if your intentions (which don't matter) are noble, any pleasantries you offer are to be construed as "hitting on her." And, according to this woman and those who think like her, hitting on a woman is not noble. We'll just take a lesson from medieval chivalry and religious notions of female purity and state that women's sexuality is pure and nice, and that it is ignoble to suggest any desire for sex with a female.

So, understand - if you get into an elevator alone with a woman, you are making her uncomfortable. If you say ANYTHING to her in the elevator, you will be creating a PREDATORY VIBE.

Wow...just...well, wow. Do I "get it?" No. Not that. I don't "get it" that by getting on an elevator at night, it makes any woman uncomfortable and that by talking to her I am likely sending out a predatory vibe. I don't get that, and I also don't get that my intentions don't matter, or that suggesting a social relationship with a woman I don't know is not "noble."

[Ronja]

I consider myself sane and mostly rational and I think Dawkins was wrong and Rebecca Watson did nothing outrageous or deserving of his ridicule.

It has been a fact, in my lifetime and in Richard's, that women in the western world suffered violence at the hands of men--their partners and fathers--and had no legal recourse. Similar in extent to what some women still suffer in some non-western cultures. It hasn't been that long, for those of you who have no experience of that. And it hasn't been that long--because it still happens today--that women are blamed for the violence they experience at the hands of men, even though they do have legal recourse now. So attitudes are not that changed yet.

And for a person who has survived a sexual assault, the attitudes of some of the people they encounter after, even when good intentioned, reinforces the emotional trauma. So pardon us for being sensitive, OK?

All of what you say is true and I really, honestly, completely agree with you.

But it is completely removed from this woman's rather trivial experience!

How/why are you qualified to make that^^ assessment?

Do you know from a reliable source that Rebecca has no experiences in her history that could have sensitized her to feel uncomfortable when approached for "coffee in my hotel room", in an elevator at 4 AM?

Or does her receiving weekly (and even daily) rape threats for several years in a row, as a response to her being an outspoken woman atheist, not qualify as a sensitizing experience?

Or is a requirement for having "good enough atheist credentials" or "being adult enough for the Internet" to never take email threats seriously - to never react with worry or disgust, whatever the wording of the threat has been, however often the threats have come, however often from the same sender?

Or does a person not taking one's word for that one dislikes X (getting hit on in crude and clumsy ways in Rebecca's case, which is what she had been talking about for a part of that day and also a part that evening/night, specifically with the group in the hotel bar) not qualify as a reason for making someone (male or female) feel uncomfortable?

Doubting a person's word is IMO per definition disrespectful and therefore likely to cause a negative reaction (e.g "feeling uncomfortable") - in various contexts showing that one doubts another person's word could very well be described with terms like "guilt-tripping", "objectifying", "dominating", sexists" or "trollish".

[Atheist-Lite]

Someone coming out with something reasonable? To be ignored?

[Coito ergo sum]

It’s this third comment that truly stunned me. I know a lot of people might agree with his sentiment, but it’s staggeringly wrong.
I can understand that it’s hard for men to truly grasp the woman’s point of view here, since men rarely feel in danger of sexual assault. But Jen McCrieght’s post, and many others, make it clear that to a woman, being alone on that elevator with that man was a potential threat, and a serious one. You may not be able to just press a button and walk away — perhaps he has a knife, or a gun, or will simply overpower you. When there’s no way to know, you err on the side of safety. And what makes this worse is that most men don’t understand this, so women are constantly put into situations ranging from uncomfortable to downright scary.

Put even more simply: this wasn’t a guy chewing gum at her. This was a potential sexual assault.

So you may not think anything bad happened to Rebecca on that elevator, but something bad did indeed happen. He didn’t have to physically assault her for the situation to be bad. The atmosphere in there was enough to make it bad. And Rebecca was absolutely right to talk about it and raise awareness of it.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... privilege/

And, here is this blog addressing Dawkins himself not getting it. This is truly fascinating. Being alone in an elevator with a man is a potential threat. Always. It's a serious potential threat. That, apparently, according to some, is the woman's view on this.

All men in elevators alone with woman make women uncomfortable, exude predatory vibes if they say a word, and even if they don't say a word they are "a potential sexual assault."

The "atmosphere in there was bad enough." Isn't that just fascinating? This woman blogger is of the view that a man and a woman in an elevator together - no matter what - creates a bad atmosphere. So bad, in fact, that awareness of it must be raised.

Do many women really agree with this?

And here is the kicker:

The discussion ongoing in the blogs is in general aimed at the skeptical and atheist movements. But this is far, far larger than that. This is a societal issue; sexism (conscious or otherwise) is still a strong force in our society, and a lot of men will dismiss claims of sexism from women. As has been made very clear here, we all need to make sure that all men understand the woman’s point of view, or else this type of thing will continue to happen… and people will continue to dismiss it as no big deal.

Sexism! Men getting on elevators alone with women and saying non-sexual things to them? Sexism.

I am just....well...wow....

[Ronja]

The Coito doeth protest too much, methinks.

Makes me wonder...

[Coito ergo sum]

The Coito doeth protest too much, methinks.

Makes me wonder...

LOL - wonder what?

I have to admit - I really don't "get it." And, frankly, at this point, I'm glad I don't.