ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

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ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:15 pm

Well, then. Beginning of the end? :eddy:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/afric ... ?hpt=hp_t1

International Criminal Court issues arrest warrant for Gadhafi
(CNN) -- The International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants Monday for Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi and two of his relatives.

ICC Judge Sanji Mmasenono Monageng read the decision Monday to issue warrants for Gadhafi, his son Saif al-Islam Gadhafi and brother-in-law Abdullah al-Sanussi. Al-Islam Gadhafi is a close adviser to his father, while al-Sanussi serves as Gadhafi's head of intelligence.

The warrants are "for crimes against humanity," including murder and persecution, "allegedly committed across Libya" from Feb. 15 through "at least" Feb. 28, "through the state apparatus and security forces," the court said in a news release.

In Misrata, a critical city for Libyan rebels in which fighting has raged, a crowd cheered Monday following the news from the court in The Hague.

Libya is not a signatory to the Rome Statute that established the international court's authority, and the court does not have the power to enter Libya and arrest the leaders. Many of those cheering in Misrata saw the news as a sign that the world recognizes the conduct rebels say Gadhafi's regime has been engaged in.

The three-judge Pre-Trial Chamber I at The Hague found "reasonable grounds to believe that the three suspects committed the alleged crimes and that their arrests appear necessary in order to ensure their appearances before the court," the written announcement said. The court also believes the warrants are needed to ensure that the three "do not continue to obstruct and endanger the court's investigations; and to prevent them from using their powers to continue the commission of crimes within the jurisdiction of the court."

The U.N. Security Council referred the matter to the ICC through a resolution Feb. 26, following widespread complaints about Gadhafi's efforts to crush a rebellion. The resolution said that while "states not party to the Rome Statute have no obligations under the statute, the Security Council urged all states and concerned regional and other international organisations to cooperate fully with the court and the prosecutor."

Gadhafi has made clear he would not recognize the court's authority.

Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo has said he has evidence linking Gadhafi, Saif al-Islam Gadhafi and Abdullah al-Sanussi to crimes against humanity, including "widespread and systematic" attacks on civilians, in their attempt to put down the months-long revolt.

Libyan government spokesman Musa Ibrahim has previously denied the allegations and criticized what he said were incoherent conclusions of the prosecutor's office.

This is not the first time that the International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant for a country's leader in the midst of a conflict. The court issued a warrant for Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir in 2007, while conflict simmered in that country's western Darfur region.

Moreno-Ocampo told CNN shortly after filing his request with the court that he had evidence that revealed Saif al-Islam Gadhafi organized the recruitment of mercenaries to defend the regime and al-Sanussi participated in attacks on demonstrators.

Authorities believe Moammar Gadhafi ordered attacks on unarmed civilians, he told CNN, and al-Sanussi is "his right-hand man, the executioner."

Moreno-Ocampo began investigating claims against Moammar Gadhafi on February 15, when demonstrations against the leader's regime accelerated. Since then, war has erupted in Libya as Moammar Gadhafi has tried to keep his grip on power.

The probe took investigators to 11 countries and included the review of 1,200 documents and interviews with about 50 witnesses. A report issued in early May found the alleged crimes against humanity include the alleged commission of rape by supporters of Gadhafi's government, as well as the deportation or forcible transfer of citizens during the civil war in the country.

Moreno-Ocampo has scheduled a news conference Tuesday to discuss the court's decision.

The issue of Libyan casualties led the U.N. Security Council to adopt a resolution in March authorizing force by whatever means necessary, with the exception of a ground invasion, to protect civilians. NATO began bombing military targets a short time later.

The court's decision Monday came as fighting raged between Gadhafi's troops and opposition forces just 100 kilometers (62 miles) southwest of Tripoli in a see-saw battle that has brought the rebels to the doorstep of the Libyan leader's stronghold.

Casualty reports were not immediately available in the battle near the town of B'ir al Ghanam, though the majority of the fighting by both sides was being waged with heavy artillery, according to journalist David Adams, who witnessed much of it on Sunday.

NATO warplanes struck a rocket launcher system mounted on a government truck near the town, Adams said.

Three explosions were heard in the Libyan capital late Monday morning.

"They appear closer than those heard in the past few days and week," said CNN producer Raja Razek, who is in Tripoli.

The International Criminal Court action comes a day after the African Union announced Gadhafi will not be part of its next attempt to map out a peace deal in Libya.

It was unclear who would represent the Libyan government in negotiations, or when negotiations would occur. Journalists were not allowed to ask questions at a news conference following Sunday's meeting of the African Union's special committee on Libya in Pretoria, South Africa.

Members of the committee have met with Gadhafi and opposition leaders over the past three months. Another African Union-led attempt to broker peace between Gadhafi and the rebels fell through in April.

The committee repeated calls Sunday for a cease-fire between the Libyan government and rebels.

"Only a political solution will make it possible to sustainably settle the current conflict," the statement said.

It also urged NATO to temporarily suspend its bombing campaign to allow the delivery of humanitarian aid.

CNN's Nkepile Mabuse, Yousuf Basil and Ingrid Formanek contributed to this report.
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:35 pm

"Libya is not a signatory to the Rome Statute that established the international court's authority, and the court does not have the power to enter Libya and arrest the leaders"

And, of course, no arrest warrant issued for Kim Jong Il.... http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011 ... 253979.htm - Makes sense... :bored:

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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:23 pm

No shit. But the festivities in Libya were started by Libyans. N. Koreans can't even get the basic arms to put up a resistance. Totally different context.
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:32 pm

FBM wrote:No shit. But the festivities in Libya were started by Libyans. N. Koreans can't even get the basic arms to put up a resistance. Totally different context.
The festivities in North Korea were started by North Koreans. You're suggesting that because the North Koreans are defenseless compared to the Libyans, an ICC indictment shouldn't be forthcoming? What sort of logic is that?

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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:43 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:No shit. But the festivities in Libya were started by Libyans. N. Koreans can't even get the basic arms to put up a resistance. Totally different context.
The festivities in North Korea were started by North Koreans. You're suggesting that because the North Koreans are defenseless compared to the Libyans, an ICC indictment shouldn't be forthcoming? What sort of logic is that?
There are no festivities in NK. KJI and his cronies have all the guns. The common people are so brainwashed that they can't even call on the international community for help, like the people in Libya did. I didn't say that an ICC indictment shouldn't be forthcoming in NK; KJI and friends should be drawn and quartered. But without a sizeable and organized local resistance, military intervention is much more difficult to justify in terms of international law. China and Russia would never stand still for intervention in NK, whereas other Arab and African states are standing behind the actions in Libya.
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Yes, but that doesn't make their conduct any better. ICC indictments are for crimes. Crimes against defenseless people are WORSE than crimes against people who have guns to defend themselves, aren't they?

And, the fact that a downtrodden people are incapable of calling for help because of the criminal oppression imposed upon them is not a reason for inaction, it's more of a reaons for action.

Military action is apparently easier to justify now than ever. The Arab League threw Qadafi under the bus to save their own asses. It was a deal - they voted to throw Qadafi to the wolves, and the West agreed to leave the other tyrants alone to quell their uprisings and that is precisely what has happened and precisely why none of the people concerned about humanitarian killings in Libya give a rat's fart about far worse humanitarian crises throughout the middle east, north Africa and elsewhere.

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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:02 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Yes, but that doesn't make their conduct any better. ICC indictments are for crimes. Crimes against defenseless people are WORSE than crimes against people who have guns to defend themselves, aren't they?

And, the fact that a downtrodden people are incapable of calling for help because of the criminal oppression imposed upon them is not a reason for inaction, it's more of a reaons for action.
Morally, yest, but it's still harder to work the legal angle by international criteria. Gummits don't function on morals; they function on laws.
Military action is apparently easier to justify now than ever. The Arab League threw Qadafi under the bus to save their own asses. It was a deal - they voted to throw Qadafi to the wolves, and the West agreed to leave the other tyrants alone to quell their uprisings and that is precisely what has happened and precisely why none of the people concerned about humanitarian killings in Libya give a rat's fart about far worse humanitarian crises throughout the middle east, north Africa and elsewhere.
Sounds about right. And if you compare that situation to NK, you'll easily see the disconnect in context.

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. :ddpan:
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Orwellian » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:25 pm

FBM wrote:
Morally, yest, but it's still harder to work the legal angle by international criteria. Gummits don't function on morals; they function on laws.
International relations functions on power, not laws.
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:27 am

Orwellian wrote:
FBM wrote:
Morally, yest, but it's still harder to work the legal angle by international criteria. Gummits don't function on morals; they function on laws.
International relations functions on power, not laws.
A country or group of countries that take the sort of actions that are going on in Libya right now will be subject to international law, no? All I'm saying is that there is a broad international consensus that NATO's actions in Libya are legal, necessary and urgent. That sort of consensus doesn't exist on the NKorean issue.
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Ian » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:56 am

FBM wrote:
Orwellian wrote:
FBM wrote:
Morally, yest, but it's still harder to work the legal angle by international criteria. Gummits don't function on morals; they function on laws.
International relations functions on power, not laws.
A country or group of countries that take the sort of actions that are going on in Libya right now will be subject to international law, no? All I'm saying is that there is a broad international consensus that NATO's actions in Libya are legal, necessary and urgent. That sort of consensus doesn't exist on the NKorean issue.
For now. I worry that this could change. North Koreans are starving (particularly bad this year, though not on the level they were at in the mid-90s) but you're right that unlike Libya and other places there's no means to challenge the Dear Leader, and a suppressed desire due to such total control over the media. And when the North does lash out, it's generally against South Korean targets.

But if the DPRK steps over the line badly enough (a particularly bad attack against the South, a major incident against Japan or the US, a big development in their missile technology), the world's patience could run out. I for one don't think it's any coincidence that Ban Ki-Moon is the UN's Secretary General; the North is a basket case and a headache for the world, and patience is running lower among many in the international community - eventually, it might plummet. KJI kicking the bucket might be a perfect time for the world's power brokers (via China, I believe) to get proactive and do something about that fucked-up regime.
I'm just babbling - this is supposed to be a Qaddafi thread.

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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:08 am

Not babbling at all, and we were comparing NK with Libya, anyway. Do you think the ICC should issue an arrest warrant for KJI?
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Ian » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:13 am

FBM wrote:Not babbling at all, and we were comparing NK with Libya, anyway. Do you think the ICC should issue an arrest warrant for KJI?
Wouldn't be the worst idea in the world. It may not go anywhere, but it would at least emphasize that the ICC is supposed to be objective.

Or maybe it would do some good. If any country has any decent influence over Pyongyang, it's China. But China's leaders care about China first and foremost. With strong international support for an ICC warrant against KJI, I doubt the cadre in Beijing are going to want to stand in the way of it on behalf of the Dear Leader. Beijing knows which way the wind blows.

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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:22 am

Heh. The president of the ICC court right now is a S. Korean. :eddy:

And there are no Chinese in the ICC court, either. But the problem may be lack of compelling evidence that atrocities are actually going on and that he's behind them. There are allegations by NK defectors, but not much else, as far as I know.
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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by Ian » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:31 am

FBM wrote:Heh. The president of the ICC court right now is a S. Korean. :eddy:

And there are no Chinese in the ICC court, either. But the problem may be lack of compelling evidence that atrocities are actually going on and that he's behind them. There are allegations by NK defectors, but not much else, as far as I know.
There's more evidence out there...

Anyway, the North can just ignore it even though it can be made obvious. The evidence that it was a North Korean sub that torpedoed the Cheonan last year was pretty overwhelming, but they still haven't admitted it. Kim Jong-Il can stay in Pyongyang, listen to whatever the world wants to say and hear about whatever warrants the ICC issues, and effectively reply, "Okay, so what're you gonna do about it?" And the rest of the world can't do squat about his government or for the North Korean people without risking an incredibly destructive war.

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Re: ICC arrest warrant for Gadhafi: crimes against humanity

Post by FBM » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:40 am

Yup. That's it in a nutshell.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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