Pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

[PsychoSerenity]

Women's rights campaigners see the creeping criminalisation of pregnant women as a new front in the culture wars over abortion. Across the US, more and more prosecutions are being brought against women who lose their babies.

Rennie Gibbs is accused of murder, but the crime she is alleged to have committed does not sound like an ordinary killing. Yet she faces life in prison in Mississippi over the death of her unborn child.

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Gibbs is the first woman in Mississippi to be charged with murder relating to the loss of her unborn baby. But her case is by no means isolated. Across the US more and more prosecutions are being brought that seek to turn pregnant women into criminals.

continued http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... er-charges

Please someone tell me this isn't real.

[Gallstones]

Geezusfuckingchrist!

This is what I propose--all women of child bearing age should refuse to have sex of any kind with anyone except other women until this bullshit stops.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Geezusfuckingchrist!

This is what I propose--all women of child bearing age should refuse to have sex of any kind with anyone except other women until this bullshit stops.

I agree! (With the caveat that it is all streamed to teh interewebz for the... err... edumication of us poor, benighted types!

[hadespussercats]

This happened in Mississippi?

What a fucking surprise.

[Warren Dew]

Seems to me we should be discouraging addicts from having babies, not encouraging them.

This is what I propose--all women of child bearing age should refuse to have sex of any kind with anyone except other women until this bullshit stops.

That would solve the world population problem if we then kept the bullshit going for 20-30 years.

[Tyrannical]

A fifteen year old coke head gets knocked up, and people still think my eugenics views are "evil"
Surely she would be a good candidate for sterilization

[HomerJay]

A fifteen year old coke head gets knocked up, and people still think my eugenics views are "evil"
Surely she would be a good candidate for sterilization

You've stopped short of demanding the death penalty so I guess you're mellowing slightly?

[Santa_Claus]

This happened in Mississippi?

What a fucking surprise.

Simply sounds like an episode of "Law & Order" (aka - "CSI - Taliban )........one of the most distrurbing US shows I have ever seen, simply because the attitudes regarded as "normal" on the show must be fairly representative of the audience as otherwise it would not be made.

[Cormac]

Women's rights campaigners see the creeping criminalisation of pregnant women as a new front in the culture wars over abortion. Across the US, more and more prosecutions are being brought against women who lose their babies.

Rennie Gibbs is accused of murder, but the crime she is alleged to have committed does not sound like an ordinary killing. Yet she faces life in prison in Mississippi over the death of her unborn child.

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Gibbs is the first woman in Mississippi to be charged with murder relating to the loss of her unborn baby. But her case is by no means isolated. Across the US more and more prosecutions are being brought that seek to turn pregnant women into criminals.

continued http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... er-charges

Please someone tell me this isn't real.

On the other hand, my wife was a midwife in the past. She delivered hundreds of babies, and her hospital was in an area with a heroin problem.

Many women came in addicted to heroin, and who took the drug all the way through the pregnancy, knowing that the baby would be both damaged and addicted to smack at birth. These children were then sent home with these women, and it is known that in many cases, the babies would be given drugs. This is because the babies suffer withdrawal symptoms, and cry a lot. To quieten them, the mothers give them heroin/methadone.

My wife also saw many women who drank heavily during their pregnancy (to the extent that having arrived drunk to check into the hospital, they'd try to either sneak in drink, or they'd try to go to the pub. Their drinking was reckless to the damage they most probably did to their babies in the womb. Foetal alcohol syndrome is not very nice.

Apart from this, many many pregnant women still smoke. It is widely known that smoking during pregnancy harms the baby.

In these cases, where damage arises to the baby, is the woman to be utterly blameless? Why is this different to them, for example, causing damage to a baby by putting methadone in their formula?

If they are so addicted to drugs, surely then, they should either avoid pregnancy or kick the habit for 9 months.

[Warren Dew]

In these cases, where damage arises to the baby, is the woman to be utterly blameless? Why is this different to them, for example, causing damage to a baby by putting methadone in their formula?

I would agree some liability ought to attach if there actually is a baby to be hurt.

In this case, there was no baby; the mother miscarried before birth. Her actions didn't hurt any other human being.

[Gallstones]

A fifteen year old coke head gets knocked up, and people still think my eugenics views are "evil"
Surely she would be a good candidate for sterilization

A fifteen year old has lots of opportunity to turn her life around. subjecting her to an invasive and irreversible procedure for being young and stupid is over the top stupid itself. We know nothing of her background or her vulnerabilities.

What is the risk of fetal death, injury from cocaine; anybody know?

[Santa_Claus]

I would prosecute the "proffessionals" who decided that giving babies Heroin was ok............and also strip 'em of there gold plated pensions.

The money could be used for something useful, like giving Junkies an extra smack alllowance...........so the problem (sooner rather than later) solves itself.

[Svartalf]

Did the judge and prosecutor tell her to squeal like a pig too?

[Cormac]

In these cases, where damage arises to the baby, is the woman to be utterly blameless? Why is this different to them, for example, causing damage to a baby by putting methadone in their formula?

I would agree some liability ought to attach if there actually is a baby to be hurt.

In this case, there was no baby; the mother miscarried before birth. Her actions didn't hurt any other human being.

If the cocaine could demonstrably have caused the miscarriage - would that change the scenario?

The issue with foetal alcohol syndrome occurs while the baby is in the womb.



[10] Alcohol exposure presents a risk of fetal brain damage at any point during a pregnancy, since brain development is ongoing throughout pregnancy.[11]

Fetal alcohol exposure is the leading known cause of intellectual disability in the Western world.[12][13] In the United States and Europe, the FAS prevalence rate is estimated to be between 0.2-1.5 in every 1000 live births.[14] The lifetime medical and social costs of FAS are estimated to be as high as US$800,000 per child born with the disorder.[15]

Source: Wiki - who in turn quote the Lancet and other journals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alco ... te_note-14



While I'm on about it, maternal smoking during pregnancy is associated with significantly higher risk of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome), mental retardation, and other unhappy consequences for the child.

Are you saying that for harm to have occurred, the mother would have had to have carried the damaged foetus to full term, then given birth, and harm would only be recognised at that point?

I find it mind-blowing that some people don't consider a foetus to be a baby at any stage of gestation. To me that is just weird.

What about 5 minutes before birth - a week? A month? Three months?

In any case, as brain development carries on right throughout the pregnancy (the neural tube forms in the first four weeks).

Can you tell me at what stage during the pregnancy, the foetus acquires a right not to be damaged by heroin, alcohol, or tobacco? Does it ever? Why not?

As things stand, we don't take action against people who damage their babies in these ways. But given the huge impact on the people who have to live with the consequences - people born with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, damage due to tobacco, or damage due to other drugs such as heroin, not to mention the massive cost to society, I'm not so sure.

At the very least, there should be large scale public health warnings run on television and radio regularly.

In the last couple of weeks, in the UK, a young mother achieved notoriety by claiming she smoked heavily right through the pregnancy to "toughen up" her baby. Between this, and the large number of women who continue to smoke, drink, and take drugs during pregnancy, it seems to me that the message is not getting through that another human being is highly likely to suffer the consequences of their selfish recklessness.

[hadespussercats]

Women's rights campaigners see the creeping criminalisation of pregnant women as a new front in the culture wars over abortion. Across the US, more and more prosecutions are being brought against women who lose their babies.

Rennie Gibbs is accused of murder, but the crime she is alleged to have committed does not sound like an ordinary killing. Yet she faces life in prison in Mississippi over the death of her unborn child.

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Gibbs is the first woman in Mississippi to be charged with murder relating to the loss of her unborn baby. But her case is by no means isolated. Across the US more and more prosecutions are being brought that seek to turn pregnant women into criminals.

continued http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... er-charges

Please someone tell me this isn't real.

On the other hand, my wife was a midwife in the past. She delivered hundreds of babies, and her hospital was in an area with a heroin problem.

Many women came in addicted to heroin, and who took the drug all the way through the pregnancy, knowing that the baby would be both damaged and addicted to smack at birth. These children were then sent home with these women, and it is known that in many cases, the babies would be given drugs. This is because the babies suffer withdrawal symptoms, and cry a lot. To quieten them, the mothers give them heroin/methadone.

My wife also saw many women who drank heavily during their pregnancy (to the extent that having arrived drunk to check into the hospital, they'd try to either sneak in drink, or they'd try to go to the pub. Their drinking was reckless to the damage they most probably did to their babies in the womb. Foetal alcohol syndrome is not very nice.

Apart from this, many many pregnant women still smoke. It is widely known that smoking during pregnancy harms the baby.

In these cases, where damage arises to the baby, is the woman to be utterly blameless? Why is this different to them, for example, causing damage to a baby by putting methadone in their formula?

If they are so addicted to drugs, surely then, they should either avoid pregnancy or kick the habit for 9 months.

Unfortunately, people who are addicted to drugs or are heavy drinkers also tend to make other bad decisions, like having unprotected sex. Especially if said people are also teenagers (see Gallstones' comment re- young and stupid.)

I'd guess many, if not most of these people, got pregnant unintentionally, and were too poor/strung out to do anything about it.

I'm not sure how to get these women to use contraception, and yeah, I have a problem with women who pursue behaviors that harm a fetus when they're carrying that fetus to term-- even though I'm pro-choice. But I don't understand how convicting a coke-head girl of murder is at all addressing the problem.

Even if you regard the fetus as a person, I don't see how the girl is guilty of more than criminal negligence.

And I am worried about the sort of precedent this might set for women who do unhealthy things before they know they're pregnant, then clean up their act, but still have a child with health problems, or a stillbirth.

The problems here are drug abuse and risky sexual behaviors. They are separate problems, though they become intertwined in cases like these. The solution seems to me to be educational outreach and access to contraception/reproductive health services. As I recall, Planned Parenthood has only one office in the entire state of Mississippi-- and that's a stat from several years ago-- it may since have closed. Mississippians as a whole don't seem to be all that interested in encouraging sexual education or pregnancy prevention. And throwing a girl in jail for having a miscarriage, even if she may have caused it by her behaviors (do we know that's why she miscarried?) seems like a vengeful slamming shut of the barn door after the horse is long gone.