Michigan bar owner fighting smoking ban.

[Coito ergo sum]

Things have changed here as well, but I'll tell you, if a smoking pub opened up it would be a gold mine and every other pub in the city would be fucking pissed off.

SNAP! And that is exactly why the Irish ban is a blanket one. If a small minority of premises allowed smoking, they would get a serious amount of business - from the smoking minority. But many other businesses might me tempted to follow suit, on the grounds they were somehow losing out. It's a quite common reaction.

Well....if businesses that added smoking were, in fact, booming because they are smoking, wouldn't it be reasonable for another business to think that they could get a piece of that action too?

That's my point. So they start to "compete" for smokers, to the general detriment of non-smokers.

Why wouldn't they compete for non-smokers, who make up 60-80% of the population.

And all it takes is a small number of smokers in a given area to foul things up for a lot of other people. So that minority is quite capable of spreading out and taking us back to square one.

Smokers are, of course, part of the "us."

Point taken, but Geoff's point above is also relevant: Smoking is fiercely addictive, and a goodly proportion of smokers welcome the fact that their opportunities for smoking are restricted.

Well, either people are allowed to smoke, or their not. Obviously, you can do what you want in your own house, and businesses can prohibit smoking. I know of companies who just say no smoking anywhere on company property, even though they don't have to do that.

I don't smoke cigarettes - haven't had a single one for over 10 years. I do smoke cigars, though, on occasion. Even when smoking was o.k. in bars, most didn't want you lighting up stogies inside, and they had no qualms enforcing that rule.

[klr]

...
Why wouldn't they compete for non-smokers, who make up 60-80% of the population.

Non-smokers are (or were) the "silent majority", and before that, the silent minority. Old attitudes and perceptions die hard, especially when seen through the lens of money-making. And now the smokers are the most vocal, as they've lost what they used to have and used to assumed was theirs as of right.

Of course, now that non-smokers are much more vocal and confident, any move to let smokers back on to a premises could backfire in many cases. I for one wouldn't set foot inside the door of any establishment that did that, and I wouldn't be slow in telling them.

...
Well, either people are allowed to smoke, or their not. Obviously, you can do what you want in your own house, and businesses can prohibit smoking. I know of companies who just say no smoking anywhere on company property, even though they don't have to do that.

I don't smoke cigarettes - haven't had a single one for over 10 years. I do smoke cigars, though, on occasion. Even when smoking was o.k. in bars, most didn't want you lighting up stogies inside, and they had no qualms enforcing that rule.

Well ... even that may not be an absolute right any more. I would have no problem with restricting an adult's right to smoke in the presence of a child. I can speak from extensive first-hand experience as to how unpleasant that can be for children, never mind unhealthy.

The cigar business is a bit odd alright. As well as smoking cigarettes like a chimney, my father used to also smoke cigars from time to time, and I always found these to be far less of a problem. But it's probably a bit like drinking in public places: You're either allowed to do it or you're not, because any in-between/discretionary arrangement beings all sorts of problems.

[Coito ergo sum]

...
Why wouldn't they compete for non-smokers, who make up 60-80% of the population.

Non-smokers are (or were) the "silent majority", and before that, the silent minority. Old attitudes and perceptions die hard, especially when seen through the lens of money-making. And now the smokers are the most vocal, as they've lost what they used to have and used to assumed was theirs as of right.

Of course, now that non-smokers are much more vocal and confident, any move to let smokers back on to a premises could backfire in many cases. I for one wouldn't set foot inside the door of any establishment that did that, and I wouldn't be slow in telling them.

I'd back your right to do that. However, I enjoy going to a cigar bar, picking out a nice stogie, taking in a refreshing pour of a fine pilsner, and chewing the fat on occasion. I really don't see who is hurt by that, or why it ought to be banned - so that non-smokers can come into a cigar bar without breathing smoke?

...
Well, either people are allowed to smoke, or their not. Obviously, you can do what you want in your own house, and businesses can prohibit smoking. I know of companies who just say no smoking anywhere on company property, even though they don't have to do that.

I don't smoke cigarettes - haven't had a single one for over 10 years. I do smoke cigars, though, on occasion. Even when smoking was o.k. in bars, most didn't want you lighting up stogies inside, and they had no qualms enforcing that rule.

Well ... even that may not be an absolute right any more. I would have no problem with restricting an adult's right to smoke in the presence of a child. I can speak from extensive first-hand experience as to how unpleasant that can be for children, never mind unhealthy.

Yes, well, there is enough for the State to do that it's fucking up already that it doesn't need to be adding more enforcement responsibilities....

The cigar business is a bit odd alright. As well as smoking cigarettes like a chimney, my father used to also smoke cigars from time to time, and I always found these to be far less of a problem. But it's probably a bit like drinking in public places: You're either allowed to do it or you're not, because any in-between/discretionary arrangement beings all sorts of problems.

I don't think so. Most places in my city you can't smoke indoors in restaurants and bars. You can smoke outside, and you can have cigar bars. Seems to work out well. Everyone can do what they want.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Pappa]

Did you ever hear about the park in which they banned smoking because all the squirrels were eating the cigarette butts. They had to repeal the ban a short while later because the squirrels suddenly started attacking people in the park.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Did you ever hear about the park in which they banned smoking because all the squirrels were eating the cigarette butts. They had to repeal the ban a short while later because the squirrels suddenly started attacking people in the park.

"Night of the Lepus, II"?

[Geoff]

Did you ever hear about the park in which they banned smoking because all the squirrels were eating the cigarette butts. They had to repeal the ban a short while later because the squirrels suddenly started attacking people in the park.

Your ciggies or your nuts!

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm off to get a stogie now. And, fuck all the Puritans and do-gooders! Worry about your own health and safety, and screw the hell off!

:-D

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You're going to die.

[PsychoSerenity]

I reject the proposition that the choice is "working in a smoky bar or not working at all." They can work somewhere else.

"Let them eat cake."

Err...no. The acknowledgment that there are more options than "work in smoke" on the one hand and "be unemployed" on the other is just an acknowledgment of reality.

Yeah and I'm saying you're out of touch with reality.

Some people are forced to take work wherever they can get it. If there are no rules against making employees work in a smoke filled bar, then some percentage of the population will be left no other choice. So what if there are some individuals that do have the opportunity to go elsewhere? That just means it's the ones with the least opportunity that get stuck in the worst conditions.

[laklak]

Don't fuck with the squirrels.

[redunderthebed]

Smoking bans are great, instead of annoying non-smokers by smoking indoors I can bring my children inside and annoy EVERYBODY
:

Thats what should be banned from pubs fucking children or at least the right to lock them in a soundproof cage.

Also, as Mille pointed out, a large number of smokers go outside when smoking at home, too, so it's no big deal for us.

Agreed i'm a smoker and my mum will NEVER EVER FUCKING EVER let me smoke inside so to pop into the beer garden for a ciggy is no biggy and i kinda like beer gardens.

I'm off to get a stogie now. And, fuck all the Puritans and do-gooders! Worry about your own health and safety, and screw the hell off!

:-D

Good man..........agreeing with you is a funny feeling i must admit.


Quite frankly whether a pub is smoke-free or not worries me little there is greater fish to fry in the smoking debate.

[pErvinalia]

I reject the proposition that the choice is "working in a smoky bar or not working at all." They can work somewhere else.

"Let them eat cake."

[Coito ergo sum]

You're going to die.

Of that I'm certain.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You're going to die.

Of that I'm certain.

I'm not. It hasn't happened yet and fuck knows I've had enough chances.