"What's the Harm?"

[Bella Fortuna]

You hear that all the time from theists about religious/woo beliefs... now you can find out:

http://whatstheharm.net/index.html

[FBM]

Funny you should mention it...

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 86842.html

05-11-2011 18:57

'Needle in lung' gets a new spin

Oriental medicine doctors call for prosecution to launch investigation

By Kim Rahn

The mystery over the needle stuck in the lung of former President Roh Tae-woo has sparked a dispute between a legendary acupuncturist and Oriental medicine doctors.

Kim Nam-soo, a leading expert in acupuncture and moxibustion, denies that he was involved in Roh’s acupuncture treatment, while Oriental medicine doctors are calling for an investigation by the prosecution. Though Kim is famous for his ability he is not a licensed Oriental doctor.

Kim, 96, demanded Roh’s representative directly disclose who gave the former President the acupuncture treatment, Wednesday.

His demand came a day after a broadcaster reported that one of Kim’s female apprentices performed the treatment. SBS TVsaid the needle found in Roh’s lung was not the one commonly used by Oriental medicine doctors but mainly used by Tmsarang, a volunteer group organized by Kim.

Following the report, Kim told Yonhap News that he performed acupuncture on Roh several times at his request but it was when he had just left the presidential office in 1993, claiming he hasn’t even met Roh since then.

“Some say one of my apprentices gave him the treatment, but I don’t know whether that is true or not. I’ve produced numerous pupils, how can I know who among them was acquainted with Roh and preformed the acupuncture on him?” he was quoted as saying.

Kim said the only way to settle the dispute is that Roh himself reveals the truth.

Unlicensed acupuncturist

Tmsarang also said on its website that it was impossible for a needle to get stuck in a lung in normal acupuncture treatments, adding Oriental medicine doctors may agree with that. It said it will take legal action for any defamatory claims.

The Association of Korean Oriental Medicine agrees. But it said such an incident can’t happen in normal procedures by Oriental medicine doctors who receive regular education at colleges, raising suspicions that it may have been done by an unlicensed acupuncturist.

The association has been at odds with Kim claiming he only has a license for acupuncture, while performing moxibustion illegally.

Following several attacks by the doctors’ group, Kim currently does not practice, according to Tmsarang.

The doctors’ group filed a petition with the prosecution to call for an investigation to identify the acupuncturist concerned.

The petition comes after Roh and Seoul National University Hospital, which removed the needle from his lung, refused the association’s demand to form a joint investigation team.

“This incident clearly shows the evil influence of illegal, unlicensed medical treatment. The health and law enforcement authorities should crack down on and punish such malpractice, which threatens people’s health and life,” it said in a statement.

[.Morticia.]

Here's the rebuttal you're going to get .

Many many people die from medical malpractice and medically incurred disease , ie from scientific medicine;

many more than are listed on the above site who die from holistic and alternative medicine.

And the statisctics look very bad indeed.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine ... deaths.htm

How do we rebut the rebuttal?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Here's the rebuttal you're going to get .

Many many people die from medical malpractice and medically incurred disease , ie from scientific medicine;

many more than are listed on the above site who die from holistic and alternative medicine.

And the statisctics look very bad indeed.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine ... deaths.htm

How do we rebut the rebuttal?

But but but...

[Svartalf]

I call woo... I stared the bit on 'acupuncture', and the first bit I got was about morons who pursued acupuncture (and worse woo) INSTEAD of actual treatment...
that kind of thing is to be used in 3 cases. a) minor problems that don't warrant actual medicine, b) in complement to actual medicine, c) as palliative treatment when actual medicine is stumped.

Plus the site seems to provide only anecdotes and darwin prize stories, not to explain where the harm actually is in those things

[Arse]

Read the sections on witchcraft and Satanism. Frightening shit.

[Durro]

Here's the rebuttal you're going to get .

Many many people die from medical malpractice and medically incurred disease , ie from scientific medicine;

many more than are listed on the above site who die from holistic and alternative medicine.

And the statisctics look very bad indeed.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine ... deaths.htm

How do we rebut the rebuttal?

Apples and oranges, to a large degree.

Firstly, many, many more people present for "scientific medicine" than alternative quackery, so of course the sheer number of negative outcomes are going to be far higher from conventional medicine than alternative quackery. There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Far fewer people die on roads using motorcycles than cars, but would you agree that riding bikes is more dangerous? The obvious explanation is that far more people drive cars than motorbikes, so of course there are more car deaths than bike deaths. But as a percentage risk...that's a whole different ball game.

Secondly, the nature of illnesses and injuries that are treated by conventional medicine are frequently more debilitating and/or life threatening than those treated with alternative quackery. If you are being treated for a brain tumour, chemotherapy and/or surgery (for example) come with risks that are far more serious than treating the same tumour with aromatherapy or listening to whale songs. But I suspect that the success rate of treatment using the former is somewhat higher than the alternatives' successes. I doubt that the morbidity and mortality statistics for alternative quackery include failure to treat. Of course aromatherapy or homeopathy are less risky...because they inherently do fuck all.

Also, the conditions under which diagnoses are made and treatments chosen are quite different. I'd imagine that many of the misdiagnoses or adverse drug reactions occur in emergency departments, where the emergent nature of the disease/injury, the patient's conscious state (and thus inability to relay symptoms or drug warnings), and the busy-ness and chaos of many ER departments makes for mistakes. Not too many homeopaths see bleeding, unconscious patients with fading vital signs and multiple injuries that require interventions that come with known morbidities and mortalities.

At the other end of the scale, many of the complications occur in the elderly and infirm. I'd say that this comes from poor care in respite centres, palliative care situations, and nursing homes where residents are "under medical care" but are at the mercy of sometimes unscrupulous operators who focus more on profits than care. I note that your reference had "bedsores" as a leading cause of death. That's not from medical misdiagnosis....that's simply from neglect.

And also, shit happens. There will always be a certain percentage of people allergic to medications - I work doing CT scans and on a daily basis, inject a potentially life threatening contrast medium. I've seen a few people die from it in the last 25 years working in the field and dozens more have non-fatal allergic reactions. Some surgeries come with very well known complications and risks...a Whipples Procedure to cut out pancreatic cancer has about a 20-25% mortality rate IIRC, but untreated pancreatic adenocarcinoma has a 100% mortality rate. It's a fact of life that some people will die having risky surgery.

Finally, equipment fails and people make mistakes. It's human nature. My wife is an operating threatre nurse and witnessed a "routine" insertion of a titanium plate into a fractured clavicle where the device that stops the drill bit progressing further than it should failed and the surgeon drilled through the bone and into the subclavian artery, shredding the artery and causing the patient to bleed to death despite rapid intervention. I've seen doctors mix up milligrams with micrograms, nurse add drugs to an IV burette instead of the saline bag (making it far too concentrated) and doctors simply misdiagnosing. Hospital acquired infection (nosocomial infections) are a fact of life because staff and patients simply don't wash their hands enough when going between patients and hospitals tend to be devoid of fresh air and sunlight.

In short, I'd be wary of people misusing morbidity and mortality statistics to promote quackery and demonise conventional medicine. And of course, the question is, under testable circumstances, how many lives are SAVED using conventional medicine compared with alternative quackery ?

You know what "alternative medicine" would be called if it could be proven to work, don't you ? Medicine !

[Adenosine]

Here's the rebuttal you're going to get .

Many many people die from medical malpractice and medically incurred disease , ie from scientific medicine;

many more than are listed on the above site who die from holistic and alternative medicine.

And the statisctics look very bad indeed.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine ... deaths.htm

How do we rebut the rebuttal?

On top of the very good points Durro made I'll add one more. You don't rebut, you agree that every death is a tragedy and that sometimes doctors, nurses and pharmaceutical companies make mistakes. You emphasise the need for oversight of medical practitioners especially those that are often required to work ridiculous hours. You mention the role of government health organisations in monitoring ADRs. You point to the massive amount of research into predicting ADRs and finding contraindications. Then you mention that alternative medicine should be held equally accountable.

[Adenosine]

And you can always accuse pharmaceutical companies of being bastards because they are.

[Adenosine]

I just had a flick through the site and I have to point out the biased nature of the section on home birth. They link to the blog of an OB who is virulently anti-home birth and then have 14 case studies of babies that have died at home. I could just as easily find 14 cases of babies that have died in hospital. But the issue of home birth goes deeper than that. Many women lose control of their birthing experience in hospital. It ceases to be a natural part of life and becomes a medical procedure that needs to be carefully managed.

There is a new phrase around, birth rape. It's where a woman has her vagina forcibly probed by an obstetrician to monitor a baby. It is traumatic and responsible for many women being turned off hospital births. On top of birth rape we have massively increasing caesarian rates, prescribed at the slightest hint of medical problems but more likely because the obs don't want to have to get out of bed at 2am or have their Saturday round of golf disturbed by a baby that wants to be born in their own time. Caesareans are major surgery and come with the same risks of major abdominal surgery. I could probably easily find 14 cases of death or massive complications from caesareans.

In Australia the Australian Medical Association has lobbied heavily and has successfully made homebirth all but illegal. To get a homebirth you must have a private midwife on hand. I'm fine with that, midwives are awesome and having a medical practitioner available is a sensible precaution. However, the midwife has to be under the supervision of an obstetrician and if they aren't they will be deregistered. On top of that, those midwives are not covered by Medicare even though homebirths cost a fraction of a hospital birth, especially one that gets intervention heavy. So the cost of the midwife must be borne by the mother. Women who just want to be able to control their own birth experiences.

Hmm. Thus endeth the rant.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Muslim girl, 19, 'stoned to death after taking part in beauty contest'

A teenage Muslim girl was stoned to death under 'Sharia law' after taking part in a beauty contest in Ukraine.

Katya Koren, 19, was found dead in a village in the Crimea region near her home.

Friends said she liked wearing fashionable clothes and had come seventh in a beauty contest.

Continued at URL above.

[Svartalf]

and I thought the Crimmean Tatars had become civilized

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Was Muslim girl 'stoned to death for taking part in beauty pageant' actually murdered by a stalker?

At first it appeared that she had been stoned to death for disobeying Sharia law.

But glamorous Muslim beauty queen Katya Koren may actually have been battered with a rock by a crazed stalker after she spurned his advances.

The body of the 19-year-old was found dumped in a remote forest on the Crimean peninsula days after she went missing.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1OWKVvVoS

[charlou]

Thanks for the update, zilla. Demonstrates the importance of finding facts before pointing an accusing finger.

Very sad, though, whatever the circumstances.

[hiyymer]

You hear that all the time from theists about religious/woo beliefs... now you can find out:

http://whatstheharm.net/index.html

The premise here seems to be that the best response that causes the least harm is the response that is most logical and scientifically informed. The only thing I would take issue with is that the tool of rationality is a therefore a force for the good. Most murders are never solved, and I would wager that it is those murderers who are most logical and rational about how they go about covering up that are least likely to be caught. The despot and the warmonger are served as well by rationality as the saint or the good Samaritan. There is also a premise that our responses are rational and conscious, but the neuroscience would say that such is not the case. Conscious rationality is ultimately a tool of the brain, and not a tool of the "I" that the brain creates in consciousness.