Why doesn't Israel have a right to exist?

[Seth]

Being muslim is not title, being from a line that's lived there for centuries, if not millenia is.

Only if you can hold it against those who would take it from you. It's called "The Right of Conquest" and it's been a feature of human civilization for, oh, I dunno, perhaps 25,000 years or more.

The last political entity with clear title was the ottoman empire,

Horseshit. The last political entity with clear title is Israel, because they took it and have held it against every Arab who has tried to take it away from them. And they've been quite generous in the process, returning Sinai and other bits they conquered AFTER BEING ATTACKED by the selfsame Arabs without provocation in 1967.

"Politics is just warfare by other means." After Von Clausewitz.

We substitute international diplomacy and treaties for the Right of Conquest when we can, but in the end, land belongs to those who can take it and hold it against all comers. The Jews have been extraordinarily successful in that regard, and their title is as clear and absolute as anyone's.

The "Palestinians" lost, so they are just fucked. They should appeal to Syria or Jordan or Egypt someone else to become citizens, because "Palestine," like the Holy Roman Empire and Byzantium and a thousand other nations in history, has ceased to exist.

Fuck righty of conquest, or we should all be collectively responsible for the crimes of israel, since it was us who kept Palestine under our colonial heel and prevented it from constituting itself as a proper state, with the appendant defence structures before we let the jews take over and gave them modern weaponry in bulk and at basement bargain price...

they didhn't just lose, they were fucked up the arse from day one and told to like it.

Yup, they lost. You can disagree with history all you like, for all the good it will do you. The victors write the history, and the conquerors make the rules. They can either like it or they can continue to wage war. At some point Israel will tire of having Kayusha rockets lobbed at them a dozen times a day and they will do to the "Palestinians" what Chivington did to the Arapahoe. "Nits turn into lice."

The "Palestinians" take peace at their will, just like the IRA can, and quit getting their children killed and quit extending the conflict they are never going to win. All they have to do is decide to live in peace with the Jews.

If they don't, then they get what they deserve, because that's how it's done.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito, I know you can read. I explicitly said that I know there never has been a state with the name of Palestine. I was using it as a name for a nameless people as they have in turn called themselves. I find it easier to call people by their desired name.

I was trying to point out that the pressure the Jewish community used on Britain is a direct result of the problem you see in the Middle East. They could have gone elsewhere when Herlz proposed Uganda(which would of meant less conflict) but they rejected it in a desire for a religious return to their homeland.

Why should the Jews that were living there have gone anywhere? Why is Jordan allowed to be a Muslim State, but Israel can't be a Jewish State?

Citations for the statement about your perceived displacement of Arab peoples whose homes were in modern day Israel? If I can find my misplaced book I can get you citation(horrible time for my book to go missing)

I will look for it, but at least as many Jews were displaced by the wars in 48 and 67 as Arab Muslims.

And yes to blame. If you are not ignorant of the Jewish efforts to complete a religious return of Jerusalem and are aware of the historic events leading up to the formation of Israel(and beyond) then you can quite clearly see the English are to blame. And yes I say the English people are to blame as well as the Jewish people for what I see as an unethical expulsion of PALESTINIANS(or Arabs if you must). And yes, I find it unethical every time it happens. Muslims were unethical in their treatment of Christians in the above mentioned examples. Americans were unethical in the treatment of Native Americans.

The vast majority of the Palestinians that left and are claiming "refugee" status left because of the 1948 and 1967 ARAB MUSLIM INITIATED wars which were designed, explicitly, to eradicate the State of Israel. Unethical? A war to eliminate a state and commit genocide on its people is fucking damn well unethical, and the fact that that war, initiated by Arab Muslims, caused Arab Muslims to pick up and leave, hoping to ride back into town behind tanks, doesn't impress me much.

Once again - Israel was formed just as Jordan was, carved out of the dead carcass of the Ottoman Empire. Why was it o.k. for Jordan to be a Muslim country (and Jews were expelled from there and otherwise left Jordan as a result), but it isn't o.k. for Israel to be formed as a Jewish country?

Moreover - almost 20% of the population of Israel is Arab Muslim. How ethical are the calls by Palestinians for a land devoid of Jews? It's the moder Judenrein, like the Germans used to call it - "cleansed of Jews." And, how about Mahmoud Abbas who said "I will never allow a single Israeli to live among us on Palestinian land" http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138856 I mean, my noGod! Could you imagine if the reverse was said? Netanyahu announces, "I will never allow a single Arab or Palestinian to live among us on Israeli land?" Talk about unethical - yet, that kind of rabid racism rolls off many folks backs when it comes from Arab Muslims.

I am convinced that it has become ingrained in many people's minds that the middle east is somehow inherently or properly Muslim. It isn't. It's land. None of them should have a religion predominating. HOWEVER, if Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, the Palestinian Territories and even Lebanon (which was Christian until the Muslims got through with them and EXPELLED, or killed, most of them...) can all be "Muslim countries," then I see no reason why a small haven for 6 or 7 million Jews occupying land about the size of flippin' New Jersey can't be a Jewish state.

[Coito ergo sum]

LOL. You shitting us? You're the ones who insisted on throwing your toys out of the pram and making your own country, just because we expected reasonable tribute paid for the privilege of drinking a Great British Cup Of Tea.

You forgot that your in-bred half-mad King George He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. And, remember when he refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. And, one of the really great outrages was when he dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. And, the coup de gras, he transported large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

And then to make matters worse you go "enshrining" some half-cocked quasi-libertarian nonsense in written documents as if the world is never gonna change, providing precisely the justification that the Palinites of this world want.

In all seriousness, you act like that nonsense wasn't of English origin. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that the English have forgotten Jura Anglorum. Just because you gave your birthright and the rights of free English men that either have existed or were fought for over the course of 1,000 years doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

To wit, Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights of 1689, etc. Our forefathers took those things seriously, and got a bit peeved when their Jura Anglorum - their rights as Englishmen - were arbitrarily and capriciously violated. What a bunch of rubes, ay? Taking that nonsense seriously? How antiquated and foolish...

We gave you cricket and Carry On movies; you gave us Dubya and Seth. Nah - you can take responsibility for your own fuckin mess.

Care to trade?

[Svartalf]

I think I'll post "Seth is alive" just to see him argue against it.

actually, trolls that old and horrid effectively belong with the undead

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think I'll post "Seth is alive" just to see him argue against it.

actually, trolls that old and horrid effectively belong with the undead

Oh, my bad. Seth wins that one by default.

[Seth]

I think I'll post "Seth is alive" just to see him argue against it.

actually, trolls that old and horrid effectively belong with the undead

Evidently you misunderstand the derivation of the term "to troll the internet." It has nothing to do with mythical creatures living under bridges, and everything to do with fishing.

[Svartalf]

that's what horrible monsters would have us believe, and maybe it helps them live with what they are.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think I'll post "Seth is alive" just to see him argue against it.

actually, trolls that old and horrid effectively belong with the undead

Evidently you misunderstand the derivation of the term "to troll the internet." It has nothing to do with mythical creatures living under bridges, and everything to do with fishing.

Wrong again.

[Seth]

LOL. You shitting us? You're the ones who insisted on throwing your toys out of the pram and making your own country, just because we expected reasonable tribute paid for the privilege of drinking a Great British Cup Of Tea.

Well, there was also all that quartering of soldiers in private homes at the homeowner's expense, and the trials without juries, and the executions and imprisonments, and the seizures of private property, and a bunch of other stuff...like the King being a complete nutter pissing purple.

And then to make matters worse you go "enshrining" some half-cocked quasi-libertarian nonsense in written documents as if the world is never gonna change, providing precisely the justification that the Palinites of this world want.

We gave you cricket and Carry On movies; you gave us Dubya and Seth. Nah - you can take responsibility for your own fuckin mess.

Hey, it was a BRITISH OFFICER who suggested using smallpox-infected blankets to wipe out the Indians. Or had THAT little fact escaped your notice?

[Coito ergo sum]

Hey, it was a BRITISH OFFICER who suggested using smallpox-infected blankets to wipe out the Indians. Or had THAT little fact escaped your notice?

Colonel Henry Bouquet to General "Lord Jeff" Amherst, dated 13 July 1763, suggests in a postscript the distribution of blankets to "inocculate the Indians"; http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/am ... 05_fn.jpeg
Amherst to Bouquet, dated 16 July 1763, approves this plan in a postscript and suggests as well as "to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race." http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/am ... 14_fn.jpeg

[apophenia]

I have no issue with Israel's right to exist as a state. It's the Israelies themselves whose existence I take issue with. From the moment they took possession, the Israelies have been bellicose, lying, vicious back-stabbing assholes at every opportunity. For the Six Day War, good on them. The rest? Israel has greeted every potential opportunity for peace in the region by whipping out their dick and pissing on it. And this business of the Mossad grabbing citizens (Ex-Nazis) off the streets of foreign countries to deliver back-alley justice in clear violation of international law is simply one side of the Israeli arrogance which effectively says, "I do this not because it is right but because I can." If some disenfranchised Palestinian snuck a dirty bomb into Israel, killing thousands of Israelies, I just might find myself looking for a white van to dance upon.

[Seth]

I have no issue with Israel's right to exist as a state. It's the Israelies themselves whose existence I take issue with. From the moment they took possession, the Israelies have been bellicose, lying, vicious back-stabbing assholes at every opportunity.

Might have something to do with the fact that they are under constant physical attack and threat of extermination from a bunch of bellicose, lying, vicious, back-stabbing (and child-stabbing) grasshopper-eating, camel-fucking ragheads who surround them.

I'd be bellicose too.

For the Six Day War, good on them. The rest? Israel has greeted every potential opportunity for peace in the region by whipping out their dick and pissing on it.

That's because every potential opportunity for peace has been on the terms of the raghead camel-fuckers who want the Israelis to suck their cocks and lie down and die to obtain "peace." I'd piss on it too.

And this business of the Mossad grabbing citizens (Ex-Nazis) off the streets of foreign countries to deliver back-alley justice in clear violation of international law is simply one side of the Israeli arrogance which effectively says, "I do this not because it is right but because I can."

So, you're okay with nations knowingly hiding and protecting Nazi murderers from "international law?" Interesting.

The Mossad wouldn't have to kidnap Nazis (there is no such thing as an "Ex-Nazi") and bring them to justice if various anti-semitic, Jew-hating governments weren't protecting mass murderers.

If some disenfranchised Palestinian snuck a dirty bomb into Israel, killing thousands of Israelies, I just might find myself looking for a white van to dance upon.

Yeah, those camel-fucking ragheads would be just stupid enough to do something like that and poison their own "homeland" for the next 90,000 years, wouldn't they?

[Svartalf]

There's no such thing as "international law" that allows a state (and an illegitimate one at that) to grab residents from the territory of another sovereign entity... there are treaties and extradition procedures for that, and the rule of law to be followed.

and you know what? no nuclear or radioactive enhanced device could pollute a land into being uninhabitable, let alone for that long. But it would be funny, if only to see the holy lands become the taboo lands.

[Seth]

There's no such thing as "international law" that allows a state (and an illegitimate one at that) to grab residents from the territory of another sovereign entity... there are treaties and extradition procedures for that, and the rule of law to be followed.

Ever try to get a Nazi extradited from Argentina?

and you know what? no nuclear or radioactive enhanced device could pollute a land into being uninhabitable, let alone for that long. But it would be funny, if only to see the holy lands become the taboo lands.

Point! If we include Mecca, it would put the kibosh on a lot of strife. A cunning plan. Anybody got a tail?

[Svartalf]

argentina has at least as much right to sovereignty over its territories as hissy rael over those it claims. If they weren't extraditing tyhe nice senior residents, that's their business, and I would applaud Argentina if they geve dirty bombs to somebody who'll deploy them in tel aviv.