Vote on Palestinian Statehood Looms

[sandinista]

How is that a failure, exactly? Hatred is some form of enlightenment? Explain please.

Because it is wrong, period.

FAIL

coito gets backed up by the other two neo-con musketeers, now just to wait for seth to jump in...predictable...yet hilarious.

[Seth]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime. Israel, which is actually a reasonably democratic country, doesn't have a right to exist for one reason and one reason alone, it's a Jewish country and not a Mooslim country.

I agree, but "Palestinians" are Muslims, so one has to wonder why they haven't been welcomed into any of the other states with open arms. A bit of Muslim hypocrisy there?

In reality, I think the "Palestinians" and every Muslim in the region are quite deliberately making "refugees" out of "Palestinians" precisely as a political ploy to tar Israel with the racism brush.

What I wonder is if Israel vanishes, will the surrounding Arab states go to war with each other to divide up the corpse? Most likely I suspect, because they're all pretty much ignorant camel-fuckers anyway.

[pErvinalia]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime.

Jordan doesn't have nuclear weapons (and and shiteload of conventional weapons) and doesn't terrorise its neighbours.

[Ian]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime.

Jordan doesn't have nuclear weapons (and and shiteload of conventional weapons) and doesn't terrorise its neighbours.

Jordan isn't surrounded by enemies who've launched full-scale invasions against them several times over the last sixty years and continue to threaten to wipe them off the map.

[pErvinalia]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime. Israel, which is actually a reasonably democratic country, doesn't have a right to exist for one reason and one reason alone, it's a Jewish country and not a Mooslim country.

I agree, but "Palestinians" are Muslims, so one has to wonder why they haven't been welcomed into any of the other states with open arms. A bit of Muslim hypocrisy there?

In reality, I think the "Palestinians" and every Muslim in the region are quite deliberately making "refugees" out of "Palestinians" precisely as a political ploy to tar Israel with the racism brush.

What I wonder is if Israel vanishes, will the surrounding Arab states go to war with each other to divide up the corpse?

While these are valid points, it takes nothing away from the fact that Israel is an extremely well armed, well backed and dangerous state.

[pErvinalia]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime.

Jordan doesn't have nuclear weapons (and and shiteload of conventional weapons) and doesn't terrorise its neighbours.

Jordan isn't surrounded by enemies who've launched full-scale invasions against them several times over the last sixty years and continue to threaten to wipe them off the map.

True in the past (not sure how true it is anymore), but it doesn't change the substance of Coito's and my exchange. Coito said 'Hey! What's that over there ----->? Shit, it's JORDAN!!!1!! Whadda bout them eh"? Well, what about them? They're relatively harmless.

[pErvinalia]

[

I don't think half the world would love to see America go down in flames. Just because that's what YOU think doesn't mean "half the world" thinks it.

More than half the world....and coito, this thread is just you I would answer some of your nonsense but rEvolutionist has been kind enough to save me the bother. wow.

That's so childish. It's your own wishful thinking. "See the US go down in flames", eh? Real grown up, dude.

Do you know how many international college students are in American unversities at this very minute? Seven hundred thousand. To say nothing of how many more apply for student visas and can't get in to American colleges for lack of room.

How many people have emigrated to the US just since 2000 (going back a century in the US is a whole other discussion)? Eleven million people. That's like the entire population of Ohio arriving within a decade. And that's not counting another eleven million illegal immigrants. Put them together, and that's like every man, woman and child in Australia moving here just within the last decade.

How many people visit the US on vacation every year? About sixty million. Not bad considering almost thirty million of those are from outside Canda or Mexico and therefore have to fly across an ocean to do it.

How many non-Americans on this forum have either lived here or are living in the US right now? I can think of a good handful off the top of my head.

Typical rhetoric coming from guys like you - you think you can claim most of the people in the world share your level of hateful bigotry and we arrogant Americans are somehow just oblivious to it. Besides, "seeing America go down in flames" would cause such profound economic disruptions that it's hard to even write into words. Even those people who don't happen to like American culture or foreign policies or whatever else know that the world needs American business.

Alright, "going down in flames" was obviously a bit over the top. The salient point is - there are a large number of people in a spread of countries around the world who hate the US for their infernal meddling and bullying and bombing and killing around the world. The question I asked Coito still remains - Why does he think these people either want to attack the US or rejoice when it is attacked?

On to your specific post, none of this changes the fact that there are a large number of people who wish to see America suffer.

[Ian]

Jordan doesn't have nuclear weapons (and and shiteload of conventional weapons) and doesn't terrorise its neighbours.

Jordan isn't surrounded by enemies who've launched full-scale invasions against them several times over the last sixty years and continue to threaten to wipe them off the map.

True in the past (not sure how true it is anymore), but it doesn't change the substance of Coito's and my exchange. Coito said 'Hey! What's that over there ----->? Shit, it's JORDAN!!!1!! Whadda bout them eh"? Well, what about them? They're relatively harmless.

Seriously, how harmful is Israel to its neighbors? They no longer have reason to fight Egypt or Jordan or Syria - largely because those nations no longer have any decent capacity to launch coordinated attacks of Israel. And Israel's 2006 conflict in Lebanon was with Hezbollah, not Lebanon itself. I for one have absolutely zero sympathy for Hezbollah, so while I don't care for Israel either, the IDF can blast them to smithereens anytime they like for all I care.

Iran might have reason to fear Israel if it actually develops a weaponized nuke. And why should Israel be paranoid about that? Well, maybe if Iran didn't parade Shabab-3 MRBMs though Tehran draped with flags which read "Wipe Israel Off The Map"...

[Ian]

Alright, "going down in flames" was obviously a bit over the top. The salient point is - there are a large number of people in a spread of countries around the world who hate the US for their infernal meddling and bullying and bombing and killing around the world. The question I asked Coito still remains - Why does he think these people either want to attack the US or rejoice when it is attacked?

Guys like you and sandi hate the US for its "infernal meddling" and so on. Most of the killing done by terrorists since 9/11 have been against people other than Americans. Brits, Aussies, Pakistanis, Iraqis, Spanish, etc etc etc... It's not some political thing against the US alone. With Al Qaeda, it's first and foremost a religious thing, don't kid yourself otherwise.

On to your specific post, none of this changes the fact that there are a large number of people who wish to see America suffer.

And is anything about that even remotely reasonable? Whether you support American foreign policies or not, wishing to see an entire nation of people suffer is a totally sick and despicable sentiment. There's no country in the world whose people I wish to see suffer.

[pErvinalia]

Alright, "going down in flames" was obviously a bit over the top. The salient point is - there are a large number of people in a spread of countries around the world who hate the US for their infernal meddling and bullying and bombing and killing around the world. The question I asked Coito still remains - Why does he think these people either want to attack the US or rejoice when it is attacked?

Guys like you and sandi hate the US for its "infernal meddling" and so on. Most of the killing done by terrorists since 9/11 have been against people other than Americans. Brits, Aussies, Pakistanis, Iraqis, Spanish, etc etc etc... It's not some political thing against the US alone. With Al Qaeda, it's first and foremost a religious thing, don't kid yourself otherwise.

Is that true? Would Al Qaeda give a shit about the US/Brits if they kept out of the middle east / west asia?

On to your specific post, none of this changes the fact that there are a large number of people who wish to see America suffer.

And is anything about that even remotely reasonable? Whether you support American foreign policies or not, wishing to see an entire nation of people suffer is a totally sick and despicable sentiment.

No it's not reasonable, but that doesn't change the fact that it might seem a valid belief to millions of people around the world. And to be honest, it's easy for me to say it's an unreasonable belief from the comfort of my western safety and affluence. But someone who's had their lives and the lives of all their family and friends and community fucked over by America's foreign policy might think totally different about the situation.

[sandinista]

Alright, "going down in flames" was obviously a bit over the top. The salient point is - there are a large number of people in a spread of countries around the world who hate the US for their infernal meddling and bullying and bombing and killing around the world. The question I asked Coito still remains - Why does he think these people either want to attack the US or rejoice when it is attacked?

Guys like you and sandi hate the US for its "infernal meddling" and so on. Most of the killing done by terrorists since 9/11 have been against people other than Americans. Brits, Aussies, Pakistanis, Iraqis, Spanish, etc etc etc... It's not some political thing against the US alone. With Al Qaeda, it's first and foremost a religious thing, don't kid yourself otherwise.

Is that true? Would Al Qaeda give a shit about the US/Brits if they kept out of the middle east / west asia?

That's the question. I would say "no". Would be worth a try at the very least.

[pErvinalia]

Two - feel free to list the attacks on other countries that you're talking about. I'm happy to address them.

Are you for real? Russia, UK (under IRA), Spain (under ETA), India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, , Iraq (citizens killed due to the Coalition invasion), Nicuaragua, Israel, Palestine (Israeli state terrorism), Cechnya (Russian state terrorism), Rwanda (terrorising themselves)... the list goes on. The US has had how many foreign terrorist attacks in the last million years? I'm sure you're going to bring up the number killed on 911. Obviously that was a big surprise for the attackers, as it was probably not expected that the buildings would have collapsed. If they didn't, the number would have been far smaller. Even still, the total numbers in the US is pretty small compared to the numbers killed by the terror the US and Israel have exported around the world.

The size of the attack makes all the difference. And you just made my point. If terrorism is because of some particularized hatred of America, it wouldn't be uniform around the world. Just follow the edge of the Islamic world and you'll see where all the attacks are. They didn't attack Russia or India, OR AUSTRALIA (many of the Bali victim were Australian). The fact is, most victims of terrorist attacks are not American. Why do you think that is? Is it somehow because everything is America's fault?/

I'm not really sure what you are talking about here. I was backing up my statement that 9-11 was a "mosquito bite" by showing that the rest of the world deals (dealt) with terrorism on a far grander scale. Hence the bluster from you to smash the shit out of someone even harder than the trillions you've spent smashing the shit out of people since 9-11, is quite frankly frightening given the mess your country is in right now.

This subsequent statement of bluster and invective

Stating that I wish we responded more vigorously to 9/11 and that I think that if a similar attack occurred again that the US would in fact respond stronger...that's now "bluster" and "invective?"

Sure. How many more trillions have you got to waste on chasing dudes around in the desert or in caves?

Responding to being attacked, rEvolutionist, is not imperialism, regardless of how it's mischaracterized.

Well, when you think invading a totally unrelated country that results in a couple of hundred thousand of it's citizens dying, and invading another one and fucking it up totally, and supporting a number of terrorist states (Israel and Saudi Arabia), isn't enough (wtf?!?), then I think you've totally lost your grip on reality. If it looks like imperialism, smells like imperialism, talks like imperialism, it probably is.

You really are unable to engage in basic reading comprehension. All I said was that I would have responded to 9/11 more strongly, if I had my druthers, and that if it happens again, I think we will. I didn't say we should invade any particular countries. You, of course, go off on your own little tangent and pretend that what I meant was that the US should invade totally unrelated countries. Focus on EXACTLY what I said - not what you wish I said -- not what you dream up in your own mind - read what I wrote and then tell me what's wrong with it. Don't talk about some other issue. Talk about what I wrote.

When you say you want to respond "more strongly", does that mean invading 3 countries vs the 2 now? Or still 2, but fucking them up more than the 2 you've fucked up now? And logistically, how many more trillions do you guys have to waste on poorly thought out military campaigns? Seriously, I can't actually imagine how you guys could do more or do it more strongly than you've done it now. You've invaded 2 countries, killed thousands of citizens, lost thousands of troops, arguably created more terrorists, spent what, 2(?) trillion dollars so far?

Oh sweet Jesus. You must live under a rock. Did Bush et al link Iraq to 9/11 or did they not? Hmm?

Take it from the top: ALL I SAID WAS THAT IF I HAD MY DRUTHERS, WE WOULD HAVE RESPONDED TO 9/11 MORE STRONGLY, AND THAT IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN - OR SOMETHING LIKE IT, I THINK WE WILL. That's what you have taken issue wit. Exactly how the FUCK does that have anything to do with linking to 9/11?

Huh?? Iraq was invaded as a result of 9-11. Of course it has something to do with it. I really don't know what you are on about. This happens time and time again with you. I reckon you must have some wonderful internal dialogue going on in your head, but it isn't being translated into the text you write.

Half of latin America, anyone?

Again - what? How is that any sort of opposition to what I said?

Get with the program man. The reason WHY you are attacked is because you have beaten proud people down the world over for the last 60 odd years. Comprende?

And, if I had my druthers, I would have responded more strongly to the 9/11 attacks, and if something like that happens again, I think we will.

And when you do, you will breed more hatred and terrorists around the world. Like I said, I'm focused on 'outcomes' and not revenge. Making the problem worse is not a good outcome.

People are lining up attack a lot of countries - you said i yourself - The UK - Spain, Russia, India - you name it - Islamic radicals are bombing the fuck out of half the world. You, however, think it's just because the US is so evil.

Huh?

[Coito ergo sum]

coito gets backed up by the other two neo-con musketeers, now just to wait for seth to jump in...predictable...yet hilarious.

Ian and Gawdzilla are "neo-cons" too?

[Coito ergo sum]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime. Israel, which is actually a reasonably democratic country, doesn't have a right to exist for one reason and one reason alone, it's a Jewish country and not a Mooslim country.

I agree, but "Palestinians" are Muslims, so one has to wonder why they haven't been welcomed into any of the other states with open arms. A bit of Muslim hypocrisy there?

Jordan gave up its claim to the West Bank, which of course was never anything called "Palestine" - it was part of Transjordan from 1950-1967, residents of the West Bank enjoyed Jordanian citizenship. West Bank residents had 30 seats in the Jordanian parliment all the way up to 1967. Jordan jettisoned the West Bank (I wonder why? lol)but, didn't give up officially its West Bank claim to the PLO until 1988. 1988. Why? To make the Palestinians "Israel's problem." LOL in 1987, Jordan and Israel actually tried to negotiate giving the West Bank ( but not East Jersualem) back to Jordan. Man, that would have been a great deal, had it happened. Israel later offered the Palestinians essentially what Obama is asking for in 2011, but Arafat rejected it.

[Pappa]

I agree, but "Palestinians" are Muslims, so one has to wonder why they haven't been welcomed into any of the other states with open arms. A bit of Muslim hypocrisy there?

Not all Palestinians are Muslims.

According to Wikipedia:

Christians comprise less than 4% of Palestinian Arabs living within the borders of former Mandate Palestine today. They are approximately 4% of the West Bank population, less than 1% in Gaza, and nearly 10% of Israel's Palestinian Arabs. According to official British Mandate estimates, Mandate Palestine’s Christian population varied between 9.5% (1922)[2] and 7.9% (1946) of the total population. Today, the majority of Palestinian Christians live outside of Palestine because of emigration in response to the 1948 War, the Six-Day War in 1967, and occupation, but many still live in Israel, Jordan, and the Palestinian National Authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians