Vote on Palestinian Statehood Looms

[sandinista]

That's so childish. It's your own wishful thinking. "See the US go down in flames", eh? Real grown up, dude.

"dude"? grow up. You don't get out much do you?

You know what most people in the world were happy to see go down in flames?

capitalism.

[Ian]

That's so childish. It's your own wishful thinking. "See the US go down in flames", eh? Real grown up, dude.

"dude"? grow up. You don't get out much do you?

Sandinista, how tall are you? That quip went clear over your head!

[sandinista]

I don't speak merkin.

[Coito ergo sum]

semantics. Given, so, change the terminology if you want. Answer rEvolutionists original question. "Based on what? Why is it you think half the fucking world (hates america) would love to see America go down in flames? Seriously, why?"

I already answered it. I don't think that "go down in flames" is anything anybody wants to see happen to the US. Why? Because it would cause tremendous damage to the world in general, economically first of all. Many countries, Canada being one, owe their economic stability and prosperity in part to the United States. Militarily, also, the US helps a great many countries, whether you like it or not, and if the US went down in flames there would be a tremendous shift in global power, and you would be quite naive if you thought that wars would not erupt all over as a result of the power vacuum created.

You'll have to specify the terminology, or rEvolutionist will, because it's your allegations. I'm not going to make up your words for you. If you mean something other than "go down in flames" (which I take to mean a metaphor for "complete destruction" in some way), then tell me what YOU mean.

Semantics are important - semantics means "the meaning, or interpretation of meaning, of words." If you're going to communicate, that tends to be important.

[Coito ergo sum]

[

I don't think half the world would love to see America go down in flames. Just because that's what YOU think doesn't mean "half the world" thinks it.

More than half the world....and coito, this thread is just you I would answer some of your nonsense but rEvolutionist has been kind enough to save me the bother. wow.

That's so childish. It's your own wishful thinking. "See the US go down in flames", eh? Real grown up, dude.

Do you know how many international college students are in American unversities at this very minute? Seven hundred thousand. To say nothing of how many more apply for student visas and can't get in to American colleges for lack of room.

How many people have emigrated to the US just since 2000 (going back a century in the US is a whole other discussion)? Eleven million people. That's like the entire population of Ohio arriving within a decade. And that's not counting another eleven million illegal immigrants. Put them together, and that's like every man, woman and child in Australia moving here just within the last decade.

How many people visit the US on vacation every year? About sixty million. Not bad considering almost thirty million of those are from outside Canda or Mexico and therefore have to fly across an ocean to do it.

How many non-Americans on this forum have either lived here or are living in the US right now? I can think of a good handful off the top of my head.

Typical rhetoric coming from guys like you - you think you can claim most of the people in the world share your level of hateful bigotry and we arrogant Americans are somehow just oblivious to it. Besides, "seeing America go down in flames" would cause such profound economic disruptions that it's hard to even write into words. Even those people who don't happen to like American culture or foreign policies or whatever else know that the world needs American business.

You know what most people in the world were happy to see go down in flames? Communism.

[Seth]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

[Coito ergo sum]

I find it interesting that none of the other Arab states in the region will allow "Palestinians" to become citizens, own land or hold many jobs. Everybody focuses on the supposed discrimination of Israel and nobody bothers to examine the "apartheid" practiced by Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt and other Arab states who don't want the "Palestinians" in their homelands either.

Kinda makes you go "Hmmmmm..."

It's because the rabid anti-Israel folks have got it in their heads that the land on which Israel is situated is properly and inherently Muslim. They have no concern as to the fact that Jordan, for one, was formed in exactly the same way Israel was - arbitrarily - and carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire - but, because Jordan is a Muslim country, it not only has a right to exist but a right to be despotic totalitarian regime. Israel, which is actually a reasonably democratic country, doesn't have a right to exist for one reason and one reason alone, it's a Jewish country and not a Mooslim country.

[sandinista]

Coito ergo sum wrote:

rEvolutionist wrote:

Coito ergo sum wrote:

rEvolutionist wrote:

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Turn the other cheek policy for you then?



Nup. I'm all about outcomes that work. By all means bomb the living fuck out of every country that mosquito-bites you.



Nothing like changing the facts.

9/11/01 was a mosquito bite?



In the scale of other events around the world, it really is, Coito. Surely you can see this? Your people are living in total fear of a pretty small threat. Just the kind of position right wing governments like to have their citizens in (and yes, the Democrats are right wing by world standards).



More red herrings and straw men.

One - we do not live in "total fear." Responding to an attack is not "living in total fear."



I didn't say responding to an attack is living in total fear.

Two - feel free to list the attacks on other countries that you're talking about. I'm happy to address them.



Are you for real? Russia, UK (under IRA), Spain (under ETA), India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, , Iraq (citizens killed due to the Coalition invasion), Nicuaragua, Israel, Palestine (Israeli state terrorism), Cechnya (Russian state terrorism), Rwanda (terrorising themselves)... the list goes on. The US has had how many foreign terrorist attacks in the last million years? I'm sure you're going to bring up the number killed on 911. Obviously that was a big surprise for the attackers, as it was probably not expected that the buildings would have collapsed. If they didn't, the number would have been far smaller. Even still, the total numbers in the US is pretty small compared to the numbers killed by the terror the US and Israel have exported around the world.

rEvolutionist wrote:

rEvolutionist wrote:
Dominate the world through fear under the threat of massive punishment, and you'll be no better than the Nazi's. [awaits a call of "Godwin", as if that is an answer to my point].



Utter and complete nonsense. It insults everything from history to intellectual honesty, and belittles the memory of those actually murdered and oppressed by Nazi Germany. The idea that responding vigorously to an attack being "no better than the Nazis" is awe-inspiring in its casuistry.



Weren't you just applauding earlier in the thread (or perhaps it was a derail of another one) the firebombing of Tokyo (and possible the two nukes as well)?



Applauding it, no. Understanding it in context, absolutely. Simplistic Knee-jerking from an easy chair with talk of "war crime" - absolutely not.



Sure, I can accept that it was a product of it's time, but that's not the picture you portray of yourself on these forums. You sound like a neo-con imperialist.

rEvolutionist wrote: This subsequent statement of bluster and invective



Stating that I wish we responded more vigorously to 9/11 and that I think that if a similar attack occurred again that the US would in fact respond stronger...that's now "bluster" and "invective?"

rEvolutionist wrote:
just adds to the perception well fashioned by neo-cons and tea baggers that Team America wants to police the whole fucking world, and anyone who dares to step out of line will feel the full force of good 'ol American revenge justice.



Stop taking your ideas of the United States from movies made by the makers of South Park.



No need to, I get plenty of it on these very forums (here and ratskep and others). It's all over fox news, your most popular tv network.

rEvolutionist wrote:

rEvolutionist wrote:
How well did that work out for them?



Yes, let me recall the way the Nazis were attacked and the invasion of Poland and France, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, the Soviet Union, the annexation of Czechosolovakia, the invasion of the Balkan countries and the Iberian peninsula and North Africa, and the sinking of American shipping in the Atlantic, and the espionage activities against the U.S.....all were retaliations for an attack against Nazi Germany...



Imperialism is imperialism, Coito, regardless of what guise it comes under.



Responding to being attacked, rEvolutionist, is not imperialism, regardless of how it's mischaracterized.



Well, when you think invading a totally unrelated country that results in a couple of hundred thousand of it's citizens dying, and invading another one and fucking it up totally, and supporting a number of terrorist states (Israel and Saudi Arabia), isn't enough (wtf?!?), then I think you've totally lost your grip on reality. If it looks like imperialism, smells like imperialism, talks like imperialism, it probably is.

rEvolutionist wrote:

rEvolutionist wrote:
It might last for a while, but you can't beat proud people down. They WILL fight back (exactly what the Palestinians do). Neo-cons, and the likes of you, will be the downfall of your country. Why do you think it is already well on the way down the shitter? Exporting fear and punishment DOES NOT WORK. It just wastes money. Money you guys don't have to be wasting.



Beat proud people down? What the fuck are you on about? Since when does "respond to being attacked" mean we're beating proud people down?



Iraq, anyone?



Are you unable to actually read and understand what someone else writes? What you were bitching about was my comment that I wish we responded stronger after 9/11 and I think we would respond stronger if another 9/11 type attack happened again. What does that have to do with Iraq?



Oh sweet Jesus. You must live under a rock. Did Bush et al link Iraq to 9/11 or did they not? Hmm?

Libya anyone? Why pick Iraq out of the air?



Because 9/11 was used as a pretext to invade Iraq. What, I suppose you think this is some big left wing conspiracy? It's fucking common knowledge. TJHere's been whole books written on the subject, including by Richard Clark.

rEvolutionist wrote:
Half of latin America, anyone?



Again - what? How is that any sort of opposition to what I said?



Get with the program man. The reason WHY you are attacked is because you have beaten proud people down the world over for the last 60 odd years. Comprende?

rEvolutionist wrote:

And, now you bring the Palestinians into it?



Umm, that's what this thread is about. Have you forgotten?



In this particular exchange, my friend, you were taking issue with my statement about, if I had my 'druthers, we would have responded more strongly. And, that if a similar attack occurred again, I thought we would. Is that something you're really arguing?



I'm making the point that the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis, with the good wishes of America, is yet another example of the sort of foreign misadventurism that has got America and Isreal in the shithole it is now in. People are lining up to attack you because you are such arseholes. Of course, i'm speaking of the actions of your government here.

[Coito ergo sum]

Nup. I'm all about outcomes that work. By all means bomb the living fuck out of every country that mosquito-bites you.

Nothing like changing the facts.

9/11/01 was a mosquito bite?

In the scale of other events around the world, it really is, Coito. Surely you can see this? Your people are living in total fear of a pretty small threat. Just the kind of position right wing governments like to have their citizens in (and yes, the Democrats are right wing by world standards).

More red herrings and straw men.

One - we do not live in "total fear." Responding to an attack is not "living in total fear."

I didn't say responding to an attack is living in total fear.

All I was talking about was responding to an attack. If you're in fear, snap out of it.

Two - feel free to list the attacks on other countries that you're talking about. I'm happy to address them.

Are you for real? Russia, UK (under IRA), Spain (under ETA), India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, , Iraq (citizens killed due to the Coalition invasion), Nicuaragua, Israel, Palestine (Israeli state terrorism), Cechnya (Russian state terrorism), Rwanda (terrorising themselves)... the list goes on. The US has had how many foreign terrorist attacks in the last million years? I'm sure you're going to bring up the number killed on 911. Obviously that was a big surprise for the attackers, as it was probably not expected that the buildings would have collapsed. If they didn't, the number would have been far smaller. Even still, the total numbers in the US is pretty small compared to the numbers killed by the terror the US and Israel have exported around the world.

The size of the attack makes all the difference. And you just made my point. If terrorism is because of some particularized hatred of America, it wouldn't be uniform around the world. Just follow the edge of the Islamic world and you'll see where all the attacks are. They didn't attack Russia or India, OR AUSTRALIA (many of the Bali victim were Australian). The fact is, most victims of terrorist attacks are not American. Why do you think that is? Is it somehow because everything is America's fault?/

Dominate the world through fear under the threat of massive punishment, and you'll be no better than the Nazi's. [awaits a call of "Godwin", as if that is an answer to my point].

Utter and complete nonsense. It insults everything from history to intellectual honesty, and belittles the memory of those actually murdered and oppressed by Nazi Germany. The idea that responding vigorously to an attack being "no better than the Nazis" is awe-inspiring in its casuistry.

Weren't you just applauding earlier in the thread (or perhaps it was a derail of another one) the firebombing of Tokyo (and possible the two nukes as well)?

Applauding it, no. Understanding it in context, absolutely. Simplistic Knee-jerking from an easy chair with talk of "war crime" - absolutely not.

Sure, I can accept that it was a product of it's time, but that's not the picture you portray of yourself on these forums. You sound like a neo-con imperialist.

I am nothing of the kind. It's something you made up in your head. That seems to be your m.o. - rather than listen to what someone is saying, you pigeonhole them into simple categories.

This subsequent statement of bluster and invective

Stating that I wish we responded more vigorously to 9/11 and that I think that if a similar attack occurred again that the US would in fact respond stronger...that's now "bluster" and "invective?"

just adds to the perception well fashioned by neo-cons and tea baggers that Team America wants to police the whole fucking world, and anyone who dares to step out of line will feel the full force of good 'ol American revenge justice.

Stop taking your ideas of the United States from movies made by the makers of South Park.

No need to, I get plenty of it on these very forums (here and ratskep and others). It's all over fox news, your most popular tv network.

Fox News is not the most popular t.v. network. However, nothing I have said has been anything like your characterization of it.

How well did that work out for them?

Yes, let me recall the way the Nazis were attacked and the invasion of Poland and France, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, the Soviet Union, the annexation of Czechosolovakia, the invasion of the Balkan countries and the Iberian peninsula and North Africa, and the sinking of American shipping in the Atlantic, and the espionage activities against the U.S.....all were retaliations for an attack against Nazi Germany...

Imperialism is imperialism, Coito, regardless of what guise it comes under.

Responding to being attacked, rEvolutionist, is not imperialism, regardless of how it's mischaracterized.

Well, when you think invading a totally unrelated country that results in a couple of hundred thousand of it's citizens dying, and invading another one and fucking it up totally, and supporting a number of terrorist states (Israel and Saudi Arabia), isn't enough (wtf?!?), then I think you've totally lost your grip on reality. If it looks like imperialism, smells like imperialism, talks like imperialism, it probably is.

You really are unable to engage in basic reading comprehension. All I said was that I would have responded to 9/11 more strongly, if I had my druthers, and that if it happens again, I think we will. I didn't say we should invade any particular countries. You, of course, go off on your own little tangent and pretend that what I meant was that the US should invade totally unrelated countries. Focus on EXACTLY what I said - not what you wish I said -- not what you dream up in your own mind - read what I wrote and then tell me what's wrong with it. Don't talk about some other issue. Talk about what I wrote.

It might last for a while, but you can't beat proud people down. They WILL fight back (exactly what the Palestinians do). Neo-cons, and the likes of you, will be the downfall of your country. Why do you think it is already well on the way down the shitter? Exporting fear and punishment DOES NOT WORK. It just wastes money. Money you guys don't have to be wasting.

Beat proud people down? What the fuck are you on about? Since when does "respond to being attacked" mean we're beating proud people down?

Iraq, anyone?

Are you unable to actually read and understand what someone else writes? What you were bitching about was my comment that I wish we responded stronger after 9/11 and I think we would respond stronger if another 9/11 type attack happened again. What does that have to do with Iraq?

Oh sweet Jesus. You must live under a rock. Did Bush et al link Iraq to 9/11 or did they not? Hmm?

Take it from the top: ALL I SAID WAS THAT IF I HAD MY DRUTHERS, WE WOULD HAVE RESPONDED TO 9/11 MORE STRONGLY, AND THAT IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN - OR SOMETHING LIKE IT, I THINK WE WILL. That's what you have taken issue wit. Exactly how the FUCK does that have anything to do with linking to 9/11?

Libya anyone? Why pick Iraq out of the air?

Because 9/11 was used as a pretext to invade Iraq. What, I suppose you think this is some big left wing conspiracy? It's fucking common knowledge. TJHere's been whole books written on the subject, including by Richard Clark.

So what? I still think that we should have responded more strongly to the 9/11 attacks, and if something like that happens again, I think we will.

Half of latin America, anyone?

Again - what? How is that any sort of opposition to what I said?

Get with the program man. The reason WHY you are attacked is because you have beaten proud people down the world over for the last 60 odd years. Comprende?

And, if I had my druthers, I would have responded more strongly to the 9/11 attacks, and if something like that happens again, I think we will.

Are you retarded or something?

And, now you bring the Palestinians into it?

Umm, that's what this thread is about. Have you forgotten?

In this particular exchange, my friend, you were taking issue with my statement about, if I had my 'druthers, we would have responded more strongly. And, that if a similar attack occurred again, I thought we would. Is that something you're really arguing?

I'm making the point that the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis, with the good wishes of America, is yet another example of the sort of foreign misadventurism that has got America and Isreal in the shithole it is now in. People are lining up to attack you because you are such arseholes. Of course, i'm speaking of the actions of your government here.

People are lining up attack a lot of countries - you said i yourself - The UK - Spain, Russia, India - you name it - Islamic radicals are bombing the fuck out of half the world. You, however, think it's just because the US is so evil.

[sandinista]

You sound like a neo-con imperialist.

I am nothing of the kind. It's something you made up in your head. That seems to be your m.o. - rather than listen to what someone is saying, you pigeonhole them into simple categories.

You are so...if it talks like a duck etc etc, quit denying it.

You, however, think it's just because the US is so evil.

"evil" who even uses terms like that...oh yah, neo-con imperialists.

[Coito ergo sum]

You sound like a neo-con imperialist.

I am nothing of the kind. It's something you made up in your head. That seems to be your m.o. - rather than listen to what someone is saying, you pigeonhole them into simple categories.

You are so...if it talks like a duck etc etc, quit denying it.

You, however, think it's just because the US is so evil.

"evil" who even uses terms like that...oh yah, neo-con imperialists.[/quote]

You and rEvolutionist make the same mistake - you confuse hatred of the US with enlightened thinking.

[sandinista]

You sound like a neo-con imperialist.

I am nothing of the kind. It's something you made up in your head. That seems to be your m.o. - rather than listen to what someone is saying, you pigeonhole them into simple categories.

You are so...if it talks like a duck etc etc, quit denying it.

You, however, think it's just because the US is so evil.

"evil" who even uses terms like that...oh yah, neo-con imperialists.

You and rEvolutionist make the same mistake - you confuse hatred of the US with enlightened thinking.[/quote]

FAIL

[Ian]

How is that a failure, exactly? Hatred is some form of enlightenment? Explain please.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

How is that a failure, exactly? Hatred is some form of enlightenment? Explain please.

I think he's mad because he was accused of thinking.

[Coito ergo sum]

FAIL