Why doesn't Israel have a right to exist?

[Atheist-Lite]

I can understand fighting over prime arable farmland but fighting over a desert, without oil even, just shows what dumbfucks human beings are.

[Coito ergo sum]

Being muslim is not title, being from a line that's lived there for centuries, if not millenia is.

No, it isn't. Owning the property is.

Remember that after the 4th century, the place was kind of a political void,

That's nonsense. It was part of the Byzantine Empire for most of the next 1,000 years. Christian.

sure the arabs took it by war from the Byzantine empire's fairly loose grasp... but when that happened, the land had been hebrew free for 4 or 5 centuries.

No it hadn't, actually.

The last political entity with clear title was the ottoman empire, so its actual successor states are a lot more natural heirs to sovereignty than an artificial creation made to house a bunch of immigrants from all over the world, especially when you see the aggressive colonisation policies they have.

Jordan is not a successor state. It was no less artificial than Israel or Lebanon. They were arbitrarily carved out of the map.

If you deny the land seizures and other offences against human rights committed by israel, I assume you don't believe in Nazi Germany's efforts to bring the jewish question to a final solution either.

I do believe the latter because I've seen evidence of it. If you have a citation for the former, then please provide it.

I do know that Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq expelled and evicted Jews when Israel was created in 1947. Do you "believe" in that?

[Svartalf]

I can understand fighting over prime arable farmland but fighting over a desert, without oil even, just shows what dumbfucks human beings are.

The Jordan valley IS prime arable land by local standards, especially since the Aswan barrage deprived Egypt of its natural irrigation and fertilisation, and Mesopotamia did turn into desert.

[klr]

As someone familiar with Northern Ireland (just because I'm Irish ), I find some of the arguments against Israel's right to exist to be simplistic in the extreme.

Indeed, the protagonists in any long-running territorial dispute have a habit of behaving as if their particular scenario is unique, and has no meaningful parallels with any other disputed patch of land, of which there are plenty.

[Coito ergo sum]

Taking something without clear title is theft, there's no right to enjoy the fruits of theft, ergo, no right for israel to exist as a state, much less a jewish dominated one.

Following that logic, there is also no right for Pakistan to exist as a state, much less a muslim dominated one. Give all those dispossessed Hindus, Sikhs and Christians their land back, Pakistan.

I'm no expert there... were non muslims dispossessed of land and dwelling without adequate compensation in Pakistan?

If so, we're in agreement.

So....if some Arab Muslims left Israel voluntarily, or were given "adequate compensation," then there wouldn't be an issue?

O.k. - I see the Muslim population in Israel is pretty huge. It's far bigger than it was in 1947. Not sure why some Muslims were "evicted" and their land "stolen" but yet, their overall population went up dramatically.

Is there evidence of THEFT? Where exactly? What towns? What buildings? What I see mostly is massive construction in Israel from a time when maybe a few hundred thousand people lived there to now about 8 million people live there. 20% of the population is Arab.

It should be noted that the the bulk of the "refugee" problem whereby Arabs fled Israel in 1947 and 48 were a direct result of Arab Muslim aggression. After Israel was formed, the Arab nations immediately invaded. During the conflagration, about 700,000 Arab Muslims fled, figuring to come back in to the defeated Israel in a victory parade. Israel beat back the invading forces. That appears to be the bulk of this "stealing" allegation that is now raised against Israel. Isn't it?

[Svartalf]

the issue is those cut dick sassenachs acting like they owned the place and had never left it and had found squatters on their lands.

If they didn't oust people out of home and livelihood (a lot of those colonies are built on lands that were agricultural shortly before construction starts), and took only what was sold freely, at a fair price, and treated their long standing palestinian citizens fairly (when 20% of population get only 6% of parliamentary representation, that tells you that a) something is wrong if that pop is separate enough from the rest that representation should be drawn on those lines and b) gerrymandering or other manipulations seem all too likely) yeah, the issues might be lessened enough as to be dealt with among polite people.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Taking something without clear title is theft, there's no right to enjoy the fruits of theft, ergo, no right for israel to exist as a state, much less a jewish dominated one.

Just pointing out that nobody can claim that as their "homeland" without stepping on somebody else's "homeland". Nobody.

[Coito ergo sum]

the issue is those cut dick sassenachs acting like they owned the place and had never left it and had found squatters on their lands.

If they didn't oust people out of home and livelihood (a lot of those colonies are built on lands that were agricultural shortly before construction starts), and took only what was sold freely, at a fair price, and treated their long standing palestinian citizens fairly (when 20% of population get only 6% of parliamentary representation, that tells you that a) something is wrong if that pop is separate enough from the rest that representation should be drawn on those lines and b) gerrymandering or other manipulations seem all too likely) yeah, the issues might be lessened enough as to be dealt with among polite people.

Evidence?

We hear the allegation a lot, I know.

[Ian]

I suppose Israel has no right to exist, since it was only established when many of its citizens rose up, seized the land and formed their own government.

By that logic the US has no right to exist. Neither does the People's Republic of China. Or the French republic, for that matter - hell they cut off their sovereign ruler's head! And how about Germany? The German republic as we know it today was established only after the nation that the Germans themselves established was conquered and occupied. The list goes on for quite a while...

Or... maybe a nation has a right to exist once other recognize that right, whether they happen to like the reality of it or not.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Jordan has a right to exist, if Israel doesn't.

[klr]

the issue is those cut dick sassenachs acting like they owned the place and had never left it and had found squatters on their lands.

If they didn't oust people out of home and livelihood (a lot of those colonies are built on lands that were agricultural shortly before construction starts), and took only what was sold freely, at a fair price, and treated their long standing palestinian citizens fairly (when 20% of population get only 6% of parliamentary representation, that tells you that a) something is wrong if that pop is separate enough from the rest that representation should be drawn on those lines and b) gerrymandering or other manipulations seem all too likely) yeah, the issues might be lessened enough as to be dealt with among polite people.

That's just about as racist as it's possible to get ...

[Svartalf]

I suppose Israel has no right to exist, since it was only established when many of its citizens rose up, seized the land and formed their own government.

By that logic the US has no right to exist. Neither does the People's Republic of China. Or the French republic, for that matter - hell they cut off their sovereign ruler's head! And how about Germany? The German republic as we know it today was established only after the nation that the Germans themselves established was conquered and occupied. The list goes on for quite a while...

Or... maybe a nation has a right to exist once other recognize that right, whether they happen to like the reality of it or not.

Give it back to the First Nations this instant, you invader and mass murtherer.
And the French republic gained its right to exist when the legitimate Capetian line died with the Duke of Bordeaux, grandson to Charles X.

[Svartalf]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Jordan has a right to exist, if Israel doesn't.

Because Jordan is not a state made up of Europeans and other foreigners who started immigrating in great numbers, and then decided to set themselves up as the authorities and then displaced the original inhabitants by seizing land for themselves and putting such a thin veneer of laicity on their institutions that anybody could see that people not of their stock would be second class citizens, if at all?

This is not a case of a regime, this is downright foreign invasion that the locals have a right to resist by any means, more right than your founding fathers had to revolt against their lawful ruler.

[Svartalf]

That's just about as racist as it's possible to get ...

Wait, I'm confused, isn't this proper gawd impersonation, or am I doing a Seth number by mistake?

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Jordan has a right to exist, if Israel doesn't.

Because Jordan is not a state made up of Europeans and other foreigners who started immigrating in great numbers,

That wasn't the case for Israel in 1947, was it? After 1947, I would imagine an open immigration policy ought to be Israel's business, no?

and then decided to set themselves up as the authorities and then displaced the original inhabitants by seizing land for themselves and putting such a thin veneer of laicity on their institutions that anybody could see that people not of their stock would be second class citizens, if at all?

Still waiting on the evidence of "displacing" and "seizing." In 1947, when Israel was formed, the surrounding Arab neighbors invaded, trying to stamp out the Nakba. That displaced about 700,000 Arabs who fled the fighting ...the fighting initiated by Arab countries. Is that the "seizing and displacing" you're talking about?

let's see the evidence of how many people were displaced and what homes/lands were "seized."

This is not a case of a regime, this is downright foreign invasion that the locals have a right to resist by any means, more right than your founding fathers had to revolt against their lawful ruler.

Israel was set up and approved by UN vote. There was no foreign invasion. And, you haven't presented evidence of one. All immigration after Israel was formed is Israel's business, isn't it?