Is free trade a good thing? If so, for who?

[Rum]

OK, there is no such thing in reality, given tariffs and so on, but there is a hell of a lot more then there used to be and with the recent financial crunch the balance of economic power has changed fundamentally.

The people of Greece and Spain are saying increasingly that they are the victims of a European economic system which will only weaken them further and further as people from countries like China, Brazil, Russia and India elbow into the old middle class and lower paid jobs which are now part of a global market. They are making noises about much more localised economics - local agriculture, socially focused economics and not just the economics of the lowest price for everything.

Arguably if everything becomes about the lowest cost on an international scale, Europe and America are going to lose out big time as we are expensive to run!

Is the economic Pandora's box open? Is local economics (to use shorthand) possible any more?

(Crumple does not need to contribute if he has better things to do).

[sandinista]

Owners of multi national corporations.

[Rum]

Owners of multi national corporations.

I tend to agree, though arguably the middle classes of the up and coming countries would argue differently.

[Warren Dew]

The people of Greece and Spain are saying increasingly that they are the victims of a European economic system which will only weaken them further and further as people from countries like China, Brazil, Russia and India elbow into the old middle class and lower paid jobs which are now part of a global market. They are making noises about much more localised economics - local agriculture, socially focused economics and not just the economics of the lowest price for everything.

Just because greeks are pointing fingers at everyone but themselves doesn't mean they're telling the truth. I mean seriously, you didn't think that China, Brazil, Russia and India had been admitted to the common market, did you?

If foreign workers are in the E.U., it's because someone in the E.U. wanted them - probably Germany and France. And frankly, if the greeks weren't so cncerned about keeping their fat pensions at a retirement age of 55, the germans and french could be hiring greeks rather than going outside the E.U. for their labor.

[FBM]

OK, there is no such thing in reality, given tariffs and so on...

I thought that's what free trade agreements were about: lifting tariffs between the participating countries...

[Clinton Huxley]

Once the oil and gas run out, international trade will become impossible anyway. No more pineapples for us.

[FBM]

Once the oil and gas run out, international trade will become impossible anyway. No more pineapples for us.

Rather, we'll have to re-learn two ancient skills that are lost to us these days: sailing and waiting.

[Clinton Huxley]

Anyone see "All Watched Over by Machines of Love and Grace" last night? Documentary (BBC) on how Ayn Rand influenced Alan Greenspan and agencies like the IMF and had them believing that computer technology could create a stable market, free from bust and boom. Interesting stuff, especially the polemic about the IMF basically existing to make sure western hedge funds and the like don't lose money when a national economy gets in trouble, with the poor tax-payers as the cash-machine of first and last resort.

[Clinton Huxley]

Once the oil and gas run out, international trade will become impossible anyway. No more pineapples for us.

Rather, we'll have to re-learn two ancient skills that are lost to us these days: sailing and waiting.

I'd welcome the return of sailing ships and a more leisurely pace of life.

[Atheist-Lite]

Trade is not what is happening today. This is a blind system of exchange which like soviet communism is entering it's endgame. In trade value is understood, worth understood and the trade between players brings in all available information including human emotional nuances. Trade is a human activity. This international economic machine on the other hand is a computer driven system, driven by the flawed systemic explanations of quants, economists and other intelligent fools. It is like you've put the plane on auto-pilot over some mountain range and begun to fly lower because fuel is short. Precisely what do you expect to happen next time? In 2007 we clipped a wing.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbgSFN5M ... re=related[/youtube]

[Clinton Huxley]

What goes around, comes around. The British cotton mills of the 18th and 19th century devastated the Indian textile industry. It's now payback time.

[Atheist-Lite]

What goes around, comes around. The British cotton mills of the 18th and 19th century devastated the Indian textile industry. It's now payback time.

Just-world theories are dumb. Ask anyone whose dead?

[Pappa]

Regarding the OP, I think true free trade, or the bastardised and unfair form of it we have in practice, is detrimental to the poorer countries of the world because it's not accompanied by an equally free movement of people. Rich countries can outsource their manufacturing and production to the poorest countries, keeping costs and wages artificially low by making the countries compete with each other to the extent that to be appealing Export Processing Zone countries need to viscously enforce anti-union laws and every other law that gives employees rights. If people could move anywhere they liked, much of this couldn't happen because there wouldn't be economic ghettoes in the world. Obviously, no rich country in the world is going to be interested in a global economic homogenisation though.

[Atheist-Lite]

I'm against the free movement of people. That should only be acceptable with geographically adjacent countries. Free movement sounds good but allows the looting of health staff rom poorer countries with much greater to needs to wealthier countries with fewer genuine needs. It also means people are encouraged to undercut wages amongst the poorest parts of society whilst allowing ruthless 'internaitionalist' elites like speculators to loot country after country with impunity. There's some other reasons too - like people can totally squandor their local natural environment because they know they can always up and move once they've torched the local rainforest.

[Svartalf]

OK, there is no such thing in reality, given tariffs and so on...

I thought that's what free trade agreements were about: lifting tariffs between the participating countries...

That's the party line.

However, it is completely hypocritical, ass it assumes relative equality between the "partners". Problem, of course, is that it implies relative equality between the parties, or the "treaties" are just a modern day version of gun boat diplomacy.

If the US want to sell cars in San Calzon, they can forbid that state from levying tariffs on US exports, or THEIR products, which they desperately need to sell for hard currency, will be taxed to the point that no sane American will buy them, and importers won't even bring them in the country. Of course, the US can get their tropical fruit elsewhere, so they can make good on the threat without excessive discomfort, while the other party might want to sell in America, rather than try and find customers in Europe, which has privileged providers closer to home anyway.

.Similarly, the stronger country can subsidize its home product and break the market anyway, which is why rice and cotton growers in subsaharan Africa are quitting the fields, because nobody will buy their products as they favor the cheaper US immports.