When is rape not rape?

[charlou]

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

In every possible scenario?

I dunno. What would be an unpleasant scenario?

When you didn't like or want it?

Nevermind, I can already see the circularity of this line of discussion with you tat.

[tattuchu]

If I am asleep and I have a partner and my partner is "giving me the time" while I am sleeping and I wake up to it, all I can say is fucking don't do that. Just don't. I am not a thing. How about he tries to wake me up and see if I'm in the mood first? How about he wakes me up and tries to put me in the mood first? How about he wakes me up so I have the option of consenting or declining?

But don't you like sex? Doesn't everyone like sex?
I'm a virgin so I don't know an awful lot about these things

Yes, with whom I choose and when I choose.
I have a rather intense reaction to being treated like a thing--regarless of who does it. And any partenr who wouold do such a thing would likely never be allowed to touch me again.

Why do you consider having sex being treated like a thing? I'm also going under the assumption that your partner's attentions are going to wake you up. That's the whole point, that you're going to wake up to a pleasurable experience. Maybe we should make a distinction between penetration and oral or digital manipulation. Let's say you woke up to your boyfriend going down on you. Would that piss you off, or would you like that? If you wouldn't like that, why not? What if he's got his hand resting on your tit while you're asleep? Is that verboten as well? Where is the line drawn?

[tattuchu]

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

In every possible scenario?

I dunno. What would be an unpleasant scenario?

When you didn't like or want it?

Nevermind, I can already see the circularity of this line of discussion with you tat.

But why wouldn't I like it if it was someone I loved or wanted to be with?

[BrettA]

Indeed, on many occasions I've gone down on a sleeping partner, but I've not once had a complaint about it.

I have a rather intense reaction to being treated like a thing--regarless of who does it. And any partenr who wouold do such a thing would likely never be allowed to touch me again.

I wanted to PM you on this, Gallstones, but I see you've disabled that (well, for me at least). I wanted to say that I understand your point, but "being treated like a thing" just doesn't always factor in depending on those involved. As I mentioned, I've gone down on many partners, but it was never taken even remotely negatively and certainly not related to 'treatment as a thing' or "doing such a thing".

On the other hand, I've avoided it with many partners too, including my current one of 30+ years because I sense it just wouldn't 'work' for her. I hope you don't think negatively of me when I seem to have appropriately anticipated the reactions of the women involved - it's a diverse world and not all sizes fit one.

[Gallstones]

If I am asleep and I have a partner and my partner is "giving me the time" while I am sleeping and I wake up to it, all I can say is fucking don't do that. Just don't. I am not a thing. How about he tries to wake me up and see if I'm in the mood first? How about he wakes me up and tries to put me in the mood first? How about he wakes me up so I have the option of consenting or declining?

But don't you like sex? Doesn't everyone like sex?
I'm a virgin so I don't know an awful lot about these things

Yes, with whom I choose and when I choose.
I have a rather intense reaction to being treated like a thing--regardless of who does it. And any partner who would do such a thing would likely never be allowed to touch me again.

Why do you consider having sex being treated like a thing? I'm also going under the assumption that your partner's attentions are going to wake you up. That's the whole point, that you're going to wake up to a pleasurable experience. Maybe we should make a distinction between penetration and oral or digital manipulation. Let's say you woke up to your boyfriend going down on you. Would that piss you off, or would you like that? If you wouldn't like that, why not? What if he's got his hand resting on your tit while you're asleep? Is that verboten as well? Where is the line drawn?

You are not getting my point.
I didn't say having sex was being treated like a thing. I said my not being awake--therefore my not being invited to participate beyond being an available body is being treated like a thing.

In order for me to reply to your questions and give you a clue I would have to disclose information I don't want to disclose.
I have left hints. Read them.

Shit happens. A person can be left changed after some shit happens.

[Jason]

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

In every possible scenario?

I dunno. What would be an unpleasant scenario?

When you didn't like or want it?

Nevermind, I can already see the circularity of this line of discussion with you tat.

But why wouldn't I like it if it was someone I loved or wanted to be with?

I've known a few women with rape fantasies. It always weirded me out.

[Jason]

Shit happens. A person can be left changed after some shit happens.

Word.

[Gallstones]

Indeed, on many occasions I've gone down on a sleeping partner, but I've not once had a complaint about it.

I have a rather intense reaction to being treated like a thing--regarless of who does it. And any partenr who wouold do such a thing would likely never be allowed to touch me again.

I wanted to PM you on this, Gallstones, but I see you've disabled that (well, for me at least). I wanted to say that I understand your point, but "being treated like a thing" just doesn't always factor in depending on those involved. As I mentioned, I've gone down on many partners, but it was never taken even remotely negatively and certainly not related to 'treatment as a thing' or "doing such a thing".

On the other hand, I've avoided it with many partners too, including my current one of 30+ years because I sense it just wouldn't 'work' for her. I hope you don't think negatively of me when I seem to have appropriately anticipated the reactions of the women involved - it's a diverse world and not all sizes fit one.

I don't think negatively about anybody or their preferences or what they have done or would do.

This is a complex subject. There are so many variables and so many conditions that enable or remove options for a given person at a given time. I might very well, depending on the person and trust and level of intimacy, react favorably. In general, my initial reaction is one of defense. Maybe that would stop coming into play after a period of time. My choice of terminology to describe what I anticipate I would do may not be accurate. But it does describe what I think when things like this happen--to me. I accept that it could be made to work, but some investment in trust and security would have to come first.

[charlou]

Do women like sex? You didn't say if you woke up to your partners going down on you, and how you felt about that.
[/b]

You're talking about in relationships ... I love it ... that sleepily passive state of just allowing it to happen ... so langorous and indulgent ... also love molesting him while he's sleeping and bringing him to arousal and orgasm ...

In each case, if it's not on, it's not on ... too sleepy, or whatever .. there's no need for words about it, it's just obvious.

Not all relationships are so loving and/or respectful. I've been in one that wasn't.

Relationships aside .. Consent for sex ... it's not automatically implicit because the person is too drunk (or otherwise 'out of it') to state it explicitly ... ie sexual availability is not the default position. A person being drunk or wasted is not an implicit invitation to exploit their vulnerability.

That said, there's no doubt there are situations where a person is off their face and behaves agreeably to sex, and sex takes place .. then the person sobers up and regrets it (for whatever reason) and doesn't want to take responsibility for their diminished responsibility, so to speak. Of course it happens. When that person then goes on to accuse the other party of rape, they're not being honest about it .. to themselves or others.

How these issues are determined if/when they go to court ... ? Not always ideally, from what I gather.

[Gallstones]

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

In every possible scenario?

I dunno. What would be an unpleasant scenario?

When you didn't like or want it?

Nevermind, I can already see the circularity of this line of discussion with you tat.

But why wouldn't I like it if it was someone I loved or wanted to be with?

Perhaps you enjoy the good fortune of not ever having "love and enjoy" be confused with abuse and violation?

[Jason]

Of course. Because guys like sex. Do women like sex? You didn't say if you woke up to your partners going down on you, and how you felt about that.

This is an interesting comment to me because it touches on two relatively undecided areas (and one dead horse) at once.

In the first case it suggests that men cannot be the victims of rape because they enjoy it - a man wakes up to his engorged member inside the mouth of the chick he left the bar with last night and puts his hands behind his head and enjoys it. OK, maybe, but what if you wake up to find the chick you took home with you last night was actually a dude and is now stroking him/herself off while scoffing your Slim Jim? Or maybe this 'partner' is repulsive in some other way, physically probably, or maybe you discover she is HIV positive or some such thing? It's simply a gross generalization based on personal bias and stereotype. It is not a valid argument. Why should a straight man who enjoys sex not be happy about a woman, even one he finds attractive, sucking his Johnson without his consent or even his foreknowledge? (Yes this question is awkwardly posed - it is intentional :p )

The second case assumes that there can be no rape between 'partners', this assumes some sort of relationship between the two persons - marital, common law, or otherwise. Such persons, partnered as they are, nevertheless retain their individuality, their individual rights and their individual will. This means that consent is NOT, repeat NOT, granted a priori. They each retain their right to consent or not to consent to a sexual act. This is a dead horse, and not even open to intelligent debate.

The last case assumes some sort of prior understanding or agreement between these two 'partners' which would suggest to me that one of them let on that this is/was the sort of thing they'd enjoy. This is something I think is worth debating - suppose you would like such a thing as described above to happen, how would you go about it? How do you let your partner know you want to be engaged in a sexual act with him or her without your prior consent? Is that rape? Essentially you're consenting that your absence of consent constitutes consent. It seems like a gray area to me.

[Gallstones]

If I am asleep and I have a partner and my partner is "giving me the time" while I am sleeping and I wake up to it, all I can say is fucking don't do that. Just don't. I am not a thing. How about he tries to wake me up and see if I'm in the mood first? How about he wakes me up and tries to put me in the mood first? How about he wakes me up so I have the option of consenting or declining?

But don't you like sex? Doesn't everyone like sex?
I'm a virgin so I don't know an awful lot about these things

Yes, with whom I choose and when I choose.
I have a rather intense reaction to being treated like a thing--regarless of who does it. And any partenr who wouold do such a thing would likely never be allowed to touch me again.

Why do you consider having sex being treated like a thing? I'm also going under the assumption that your partner's attentions are going to wake you up. That's the whole point, that you're going to wake up to a pleasurable experience. Maybe we should make a distinction between penetration and oral or digital manipulation. Let's say you woke up to your boyfriend going down on you. Would that piss you off, or would you like that? If you wouldn't like that, why not? What if he's got his hand resting on your tit while you're asleep? Is that verboten as well? Where is the line drawn?

This is not either or; either one would naturally be receptive to one's partner initiating sex without waking them up first--or one is frigid.
So, when you ask "Why do you consider having sex being treated like a thing?" you are implying that I have a disorderd POV on sex in general, and that is very much not the case. It is certain behaviors, very specific behaviors that illicit a reaction. Something I don't think about first and then do, I don't think at all, I just a react.

Unfortunately, once trust is broken and unfortunate associations are made they are extremely resistant to being unmade.
Loss of trust is the death of intimacy.

[tattuchu]

You are not getting my point.
I didn't say having sex was being treated like a thing. I said my not being awake--therefore my not being invited to participate beyond being an available body is being treated like a thing.

I got your point. My point was in wondering why you view intimacy as abuse if you happen to be asleep at the time. Why do you feel your partner views your sleeping form as nothing more than a piece of meat? I've never thought of my partners that way, and I never would. That's just weird.
If you've been in an abusive relationship and had an unpleasant experience, I'm sorry. Please don't think I'm being an asshole or giving you a hard time. This is nothing personal, and I don't expect you to reveal personal information. I just thought this was an interesting area of discussion.

[tattuchu]

Of course. Because guys like sex. Do women like sex? You didn't say if you woke up to your partners going down on you, and how you felt about that.

This is an interesting comment to me because it touches on two relatively undecided areas (and one dead horse) at once.

In the first case it suggests that men cannot be the victims of rape because they enjoy it - a man wakes up to his engorged member inside the mouth of the chick he left the bar with last night and puts his hands behind his head and enjoys it. OK, maybe, but what if you wake up to find the chick you took home with you last night was actually a dude and is now stroking him/herself off while scoffing your Slim Jim? Or maybe this 'partner' is repulsive in some other way, physically probably, or maybe you discover she is HIV positive or some such thing? It's simply a gross generalization based on personal bias and stereotype. It is not a valid argument. Why should a straight man who enjoys sex not be happy about a woman, even one he finds attractive, sucking his Johnson without his consent or even his foreknowledge? (Yes this question is awkwardly posed - it is intentional :p )

Well I guess the fact that I'm in bed naked with the person implies consent. But I suppose I'm relying on the kindness of others not to do anything really freaky or gross
As for the last sentence, yes that's my point exactly. Why should he not be happy? Blow jobs are awesome


The second case assumes that there can be no rape between 'partners', this assumes some sort of relationship between the two persons - marital, common law, or otherwise. Such persons, partnered as they are, nevertheless retain their individuality, their individual rights and their individual will. This means that consent is NOT, repeat NOT, granted a priori. They each retain their right to consent or not to consent to a sexual act. This is a dead horse, and not even open to intelligent debate.

That's a good point, and I hope I'm not implying this although it seems I did. I certainly don't think nothing unpleasant or unwanted could ever happen between two people who are partners. It can. It just have to, necessarily. In the case of one person having sex with the other while the other is asleep, I don't think is necessarily or inherently abusive. Again, I guess I'm relying on people mostly being nice to other.

The last case assumes some sort of prior understanding or agreement between these two 'partners' which would suggest to me that one of them let on that this is/was the sort of thing they'd enjoy. This is something I think is worth debating - suppose you would like such a thing as described above to happen, how would you go about it? How do you let your partner know you want to be engaged in a sexual act with him or her without your prior consent? Is that rape? Essentially you're consenting that your absence of consent constitutes consent. It seems like a gray area to me.

[Pappa]

Has anyone done the "...when it's canola" joke yet?