When is rape not rape?

[Gallstones]

Geez... I've just scanned this thread and will get around to reading it later, but I'm stunned at some of the crap here. A dickhead Toronto cop recently gave out 'advice' about not dressing like a slut as a point to avoid rape and that in turn initiated a protest held last month called "SlutWalk Toronto". Since then there have been SlutWalks announced or done in 70 cities (last I heard) around the world and I know Cunt's been posting info about them on Ratz Facebook. For now, I'll just post this one vid as a reasonable summary:

FFS: No means no; Yes means yes; Responsibility lies completely with the rapist... com-fuckin-pletely!

I wonder if he'd consider accessorizing my slutty outfit with a handgun as an adequate deterrrent?

Thing is, a person doesn't have to dress "slutty" to be ogled, fondled, hit on, regaled with innuendo, told they shouldn't go out looking like that if they weren't goiong to put out....etc. I dress comfortably for me. It isn't my fault that I have breasts and child bearing hips.

[Warren Dew]

If I get drunk and wander into a bad part of town and get robbed or beaten up, should I blame someone else? Fuck no.

You should blame yourself, yes, but you should also press charges if the police catch the robbers or assaulters, which they should try to do.

[odysseus]

Ken Clarke is the media's chew toy now. He's asked for it really. He's a fat old windbag with outrageous attitudes belonging to the middle of another century. Deserves a long slow chew. It appears the media are well pleased to have a politician they can chew on after the last couple of months.

I wholeheartedly agree. The guy is an anachronism. Flush, please!

[BrettA]

Geez... I've just scanned this thread and will get around to reading it later, but I'm stunned at some of the crap here. A dickhead Toronto cop recently gave out 'advice' about not dressing like a slut as a point to avoid rape and that in turn initiated a protest held last month called "SlutWalk Toronto". Since then there have been SlutWalks announced or done in 70 cities (last I heard) around the world and I know Cunt's been posting info about them on Ratz Facebook. For now, I'll just post this one vid as a reasonable summary:
...
FFS: No means no; Yes means yes; Responsibility lies completely with the rapist... com-fuckin-pletely!

I wonder if he'd consider accessorizing my slutty outfit with a handgun as an adequate deterrrent?

Thing is, a person doesn't have to dress "slutty" to be ogled, fondled, hit on, regaled with innuendo, told they shouldn't go out looking like that if they weren't goiong to put out....etc. I dress comfortably for me. It isn't my fault that I have breasts and child bearing hips.

Absolutely!!! That's much the point of SlutWalks - though hardly all - the whole thing about dressing slutty or other crap that some people suggest being indicative of "asking for it" is completely bogus! They're all just overt and not-so-overt excuses to place blame on the woman - partly or wholly! It's all bullshit! I liked one protester's poster especially: "I'm not asking for it until I DO!"

[Gallstones]

Women can want sex and man migfht not but a woman cannot physically force a man to have sex against his will in most normal circumstances. I suppose you knock a bloke out, inject him with drugs and screw him but this is hardly an ever day event

I'm not sure what the law says if the woman is using blackmail or other threats?. A woman can also be charged with the rape of another woman if she assists a man to do it (UK law).

A man is presumed to be innocent until proven otherwise, a women is assumed not to have given consent unless there is specific evidence to prove that she has. This can obviously be contradictory, but realistically if a woman is seen to go into a room voluntary with a man and there is no evidence of injury or sounds of a struggle the chances of a successful prosecution are zero. That doesnt mean there wasnt an attack but there is simply no way to proof it.

A rapist is infinitely more likely to get away with it , than an innocent man be convicted (far more than in other crimes). Accussing someone is a different matter the police just have to take accussations at least initially seriously

In know a man who was raped by a woman. So it can happen and does.

Most sexual assaults are not reported. So most violators do get away with it.
Those who have been assaulted don't escape the personal consequences regardless of outcome. It isn't just the internal, emotionally based inhibitions borne by the violated person that keep them from reporting, the attitudes and messages from family and society act on such persons too. That is a lot to have to overcome. And that is before the ordeal of the prosecution.

[BrettA]

If I get drunk and wander into a bad part of town and get robbed or beaten up, should I blame someone else? Fuck no.

Riiiiight! And if ya wear an Armani suit, Testoni shoes and a Rolex watch, blame yerself for getting robbed! And if ya live in a high-end home in an upscale 'hood and you get broken into, you deserve all the blame! And if a cop gets raped by a uniform fetishist, it was clearly the cop's fault! Fucking Bullshit!

This blaming the victim stuff is pure crap! It's the fucking robbers who should be blamed for stealing and the fucking rapists who should be blamed for rape. NOT the woman!

Now if you wanna take some responsibility for getting drunk and blame yourself... go for it.

[Svartalf]

Well I'm going to take a stroll and I'm a bit drunk hope I don't get raped ...i'd be safe if I had GUNS....... Seth

By GUNS I assume you mean to refer to breasts, colloquially, with bullet-like, stiff nipples poking through a skin tight teeshirt itself thinner than a fine sheet of washi paper.

..
...
....
If you pictured the above and now have a semi or full-on erection you're a rapist.

OK, I'm a rapist, what nice girl wants to be my next victim?

[tattuchu]

How about people ought to be responsible for themselves and their conduct and they not fuck people who are not fully conscious and consenting? And if they do so anyway because they are drunk and don't exercise good judgment and get charged with rape they just accept that they raped someone?

But don't the bits in bold go both ways? I don't like this idea that women are helpless victims and men are inherently aggressors. Both parties need to take responsibility for their actions. If a person is acting slutty...and I hate to use a word like that, but...okay, let's say provocatively. If a person is acting and/or dressing in a provocative way, doesn't that person bear some of the responsibility? I'm not saying all the responsibility, or even most of the responsibility, but some. It just seems like common sense to me. Your actions, your decisions, are part of the equation. If your dress and your behavior scream "FUCK ME!", why should it then be a surprise when you are fucked?
I might be missing some distinction here, as I haven't read through every post, nor read all of them carefully. I'm not advocating force or coercion, of course, or any type of otherwise non-consensual sex. But sometimes consent is simply implied without it being explicitly stated. I mean, isn't it usually implied without being explicitly stated?
In the case of someone who is asleep or unconscious, this raises an interesting question. Let's say...forgot about the alcohol element...let's just say you're sleeping. And you wake up. And your husband or your boyfriend or your date is giving you the time, be it digitally, orally, or, uh, fuckingly...would you be happy about that or upset about it? Would you consider it consensual sex, given that the two of you are a couple in whatever capacity, or would you consider it rape? Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

[charlou]

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

In every possible scenario?

[tattuchu]

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

In every possible scenario?

I dunno. What would be an unpleasant scenario?

[Gallstones]

How about people ought to be responsible for themselves and their conduct and they not fuck people who are not fully conscious and consenting? And if they do so anyway because they are drunk and don't exercise good judgment and get charged with rape they just accept that they raped someone?

But don't the bits in bold go both ways? I don't like this idea that women are helpless victims and men are inherently aggressors. Both parties need to take responsibility for their actions. If a person is acting slutty...and I hate to use a word like that, but...okay, let's say provocatively. If a person is acting and/or dressing in a provocative way, doesn't that person bear some of the responsibility? I'm not saying all the responsibility, or even most of the responsibility, but some. It just seems like common sense to me. Your actions, your decisions, are part of the equation. If your dress and your behavior scream "FUCK ME!", why should it then be a surprise when you are fucked?
I might be missing some distinction here, as I haven't read through every post, nor read all of them carefully. I'm not advocating force or coercion, of course, or any type of otherwise non-consensual sex. But sometimes consent is simply implied without it being explicitly stated. I mean, isn't it usually implied without being explicitly stated?
In the case of someone who is asleep or unconscious, this raises an interesting question. Let's say...forgot about the alcohol element...let's just say you're sleeping. And you wake up. And your husband or your boyfriend or your date is giving you the time, be it digitally, orally, or, uh, fuckingly...would you be happy about that or upset about it? Would you consider it consensual sex, given that the two of you are a couple in whatever capacity, or would you consider it rape? Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

Sometimes a person is doing no such thing, intending no such thing--but their normal appearance and normal behavior is being interpreted as saying "Fuck me."

If I am asleep and I have a partner and my partner is "giving me the time" while I am sleeping and I wake up to it, all I can say is fucking don't do that. Just don't. I am not a thing. How about he tries to wake me up and see if I'm in the mood first? How about he wakes me up and tries to put me in the mood first? How about he wakes me up so I have the option of consenting or declining?

When you are on your back and some man--who outweighs you by 50+ pounds and can easily overpower you--has his hands around your neck, is pressing and asking you if you want to die, it puts one in an untenable situation with few options. I think one can accept that one is in actuality close to helpless and virtually certain to be victimized. So, in this situation what is the responsibility of the "victim"?

I also think that one should never go on what one perceives as implied consent--get it first. Make sure that it has been stated.

[tattuchu]

If I am asleep and I have a partner and my partner is "giving me the time" while I am sleeping and I wake up to it, all I can say is fucking don't do that. Just don't. I am not a thing. How about he tries to wake me up and see if I'm in the mood first? How about he wakes me up and tries to put me in the mood first? How about he wakes me up so I have the option of consenting or declining?

But don't you like sex? Doesn't everyone like sex?
I'm a virgin so I don't know an awful lot about these things

[BrettA]

How about people ought to be responsible for themselves and their conduct and they not fuck people who are not fully conscious and consenting? And if they do so anyway because they are drunk and don't exercise good judgment and get charged with rape they just accept that they raped someone?

But don't the bits in bold go both ways? I don't like this idea that women are helpless victims and men are inherently aggressors.

Red Herring Alert! Red Herring Alert! Who the fuck said that men are inherently aggressors? Only the men who are inherently aggressive are gonna be pegged as inherent aggressors. And rape is inherently aggressive.

Both parties need to take responsibility for their actions. If a person is acting slutty...and I hate to use a word like that, but...okay, let's say provocatively. If a person is acting and/or dressing in a provocative way, doesn't that person bear some of the responsibility? I'm not saying all the responsibility, or even most of the responsibility, but some. It just seems like common sense to me. Your actions, your decisions, are part of the equation. If your dress and your behavior scream "FUCK ME!", why should it then be a surprise when you are fucked?

Oh, she might well wanna get fucked and might well get fucked and be neither surprised nor upset when it happens... but maybe she just doesn't wanna get fucked by *you*. Or some other jack-assed dip she wants nothing whatsoever to do with (not suggesting you are one, here). She may wanna actually choose who she fucks (I'm astounded that this seems not to have occurred to you!) Indeed, she may want sex but with another woman. But at any rate, dressing slutty is simply NOT an invitation.

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

Great! Where d'ya live? I'll send over a football team, two sumo wrestlers, a Dom, a Mastiff and the patrons of all the gay bars I can find. Surprise! (So much for your virginity.)

I might be missing some distinction here, as I haven't read through every post, nor read all of them carefully. I'm not advocating force or coercion, of course, or any type of otherwise non-consensual sex. But sometimes consent is simply implied without it being explicitly stated. I mean, isn't it usually implied without being explicitly stated?

In the case of someone who is asleep or unconscious, this raises an interesting question. Let's say...forgot about the alcohol element...let's just say you're sleeping. And you wake up. And your husband or your boyfriend or your date is giving you the time, be it digitally, orally, or, uh, fuckingly...would you be happy about that or upset about it? Would you consider it consensual sex, given that the two of you are a couple in whatever capacity, or would you consider it rape?

I think there's a point here and the point is that if you know your partner well enough to know the reaction you'll get - go fer it. Indeed, on many occasions I've gone down on a sleeping partner, but I've not once had a complaint about it. And if you have enough doubt to even think twice about it - don't fucking go there!

[Gallstones]

If I am asleep and I have a partner and my partner is "giving me the time" while I am sleeping and I wake up to it, all I can say is fucking don't do that. Just don't. I am not a thing. How about he tries to wake me up and see if I'm in the mood first? How about he wakes me up and tries to put me in the mood first? How about he wakes me up so I have the option of consenting or declining?

But don't you like sex? Doesn't everyone like sex?
I'm a virgin so I don't know an awful lot about these things

Yes, with whom I choose and when I choose.
I have a rather intense reaction to being treated like a thing--regarless of who does it. And any partenr who wouold do such a thing would likely never be allowed to touch me again.

[tattuchu]

How about people ought to be responsible for themselves and their conduct and they not fuck people who are not fully conscious and consenting? And if they do so anyway because they are drunk and don't exercise good judgment and get charged with rape they just accept that they raped someone?

But don't the bits in bold go both ways? I don't like this idea that women are helpless victims and men are inherently aggressors.

Red Herring Alert! Red Herring Alert! Who the fuck said that men are inherently aggressors? Only the men who are inherently aggressive are gonna be pegged as inherent aggressors. And rape is inherently aggressive.
It's just a general attitude in discussions like this that men are the aggressors and women are victims.
And of course rape is inherently aggressive. But the whole point of contention is in what constitutes rape.

Both parties need to take responsibility for their actions. If a person is acting slutty...and I hate to use a word like that, but...okay, let's say provocatively. If a person is acting and/or dressing in a provocative way, doesn't that person bear some of the responsibility? I'm not saying all the responsibility, or even most of the responsibility, but some. It just seems like common sense to me. Your actions, your decisions, are part of the equation. If your dress and your behavior scream "FUCK ME!", why should it then be a surprise when you are fucked?

Oh, she might well wanna get fucked and might well get fucked and be neither surprised nor upset when it happens... but maybe she just doesn't wanna get fucked by *you*. Or some other jack-assed dip she wants nothing whatsoever to do with (not suggesting you are one, here). She may wanna actually choose who she fucks (I'm astounded that this seems not to have occurred to you!) Indeed, she may want sex but with another woman. But at any rate, dressing slutty is simply NOT an invitation.
Sorry, I was thinking along the lines of Seth's hypothetical scenario in which a woman shows all the signs of consent in a very obvious way to a specific guy, to the point in which they're in bed together. I didn't mean to imply that it might be with some random guy not of her choosing.
But dressing slutty is most certainly an invitation. If it's not an invitation, then what? A provocatively dressed person is sending out a signal, a mating call if you will.

Because, me, if I woke up and I was being digitally or orally manipulated, or I was being fucked...um...I would kinda like that and consider it a wonderful surprise

Great! Where d'ya live? I'll send over a football team, two sumo wrestlers, a Dom, a Mastiff and the patrons of all the gay bars I can find. Surprise! (So much for your virginity.)
Yeah, well, except I specified that it was with somebody you were already paired up with in some capacity.

I might be missing some distinction here, as I haven't read through every post, nor read all of them carefully. I'm not advocating force or coercion, of course, or any type of otherwise non-consensual sex. But sometimes consent is simply implied without it being explicitly stated. I mean, isn't it usually implied without being explicitly stated?

In the case of someone who is asleep or unconscious, this raises an interesting question. Let's say...forgot about the alcohol element...let's just say you're sleeping. And you wake up. And your husband or your boyfriend or your date is giving you the time, be it digitally, orally, or, uh, fuckingly...would you be happy about that or upset about it? Would you consider it consensual sex, given that the two of you are a couple in whatever capacity, or would you consider it rape?

I think there's a point here and the point is that if you know your partner well enough to know the reaction you'll get - go fer it. Indeed, on many occasions I've gone down on a sleeping partner, but I've not once had a complaint about it.

Of course. Because guys like sex. Do women like sex? You didn't say if you woke up to your partners going down on you, and how you felt about that.