When is rape not rape?

[Seth]

If you think women should not be drunk or looking good or talking to strange men in pubs and clubs or they deserve abuse assault and rape then you are the fucking Taliban .

Once again, for the cognitively impaired, I have never said that a woman "deserves" to be assaulted or raped just because she is drunk. However, if she is drunk and she happens to BE assaulted or raped, I think it's her fault and she ought to suck it up and accept that she made a bad judgment and accept the consequences without complaint.

If I go hiking in the wilderness without telling anyone where I'm going and I fall off a cliff and break my leg and end up starving to death, should I blame someone for my own idiocy? If I get drunk and wander into a bad part of town and get robbed or beaten up, should I blame someone else? Fuck no.

Why should women be any less responsible for their own safety than anyone else is?

Huge difference there, Sparky.

[Seth]

Due to biology only men can truely innitiate sex so the burden of determining consent is on them

Oh, I agree, but the point is that when some hottie gets tanked at the bar, rubs herself all over you at the bar, consents to go home with you, consents to getting naked with you, consents to stroking your cock as you finger her pussy and then doesn't object to being fucked, that's consent. The point is that she's not allowed to wake up in the morning wondering where she is and who you are and claim "rape" just because she doesn't remember giving consent while she was voluntarily intoxicated.

It's fine if she wants to get shit-faced, but that shouldn't be an aggravating factor in a claim of "date rape" it should be a mitigating factor.

"Your honor, the alleged victim in this case voluntarily got herself drunk, voluntarily went with the defendant to his apartment, voluntarily undressed, voluntarily got into bed with him and voluntarily submitted to his sexual advances. The fact that she was drunk off her ass and doesn't remember any of it doesn't mean that consent was not duly given at the time. My client has a right to rely upon her representations of consent given at the time as permission for his sexual activities, notwithstanding the alleged victim's later, remorse-driven, after-the-fact claim that she was incompetent to give permission.

No one forced her to drink alcohol and no one forced her to have sex against any manifest and reasonably evident objection by her. She is responsible for herself and for revoking what can be reasonably construed to be consent to sexual intercourse given previously. If she fails to do so because she has rendered herself stuporous through a voluntary act, the burden is not on my client to determine her level of awareness under circumstances where her consent has been previously given or may be rationally inferred from the circumstances, as in this case.

Therefore, the defense asks for a directed verdict of not guilty based on the prosecution's failure to present a prima facie case of sexual intercourse against the will of the alleged victim."

[Feck]

If you think women should not be drunk or looking good or talking to strange men in pubs and clubs or they deserve abuse assault and rape then you are the fucking Taliban .

Once again, for the cognitively impaired, I have never said that a woman "deserves" to be assaulted or raped just because she is drunk. However, if she is drunk and she happens to BE assaulted or raped, I think it's her fault and she ought to suck it up and accept that she made a bad judgment and accept the consequences without complaint.

If I go hiking in the wilderness without telling anyone where I'm going and I fall off a cliff and break my leg and end up starving to death, should I blame someone for my own idiocy? If I get drunk and wander into a bad part of town and get robbed or beaten up, should I blame someone else? Fuck no.

Why should women be any less responsible for their own safety than anyone else is?

Huge difference there, Sparky.

Just deserts ...that's what you said That means deserved .... no nuance involved !and it's not about women protecting themselves it's about the morality of men ...And no if you fall off a cliff it's your fault if you get mugged it's the muggers . Bad part of town ....MMM your views expressed in other threads would lead to almost everywhere being a bad part of town . Now stop trying to weasel out of the things you have said and stop shifting blame onto the victims of crime . Your expressed opinions of the nature of the society you want to live in mean we would all have to be be sober,straight , better armed and quicker on the draw than the 'criminals' . Trust me ...... you aren't

[Seth]

If you think women should not be drunk or looking good or talking to strange men in pubs and clubs or they deserve abuse assault and rape then you are the fucking Taliban .

Once again, for the cognitively impaired, I have never said that a woman "deserves" to be assaulted or raped just because she is drunk. However, if she is drunk and she happens to BE assaulted or raped, I think it's her fault and she ought to suck it up and accept that she made a bad judgment and accept the consequences without complaint.

If I go hiking in the wilderness without telling anyone where I'm going and I fall off a cliff and break my leg and end up starving to death, should I blame someone for my own idiocy? If I get drunk and wander into a bad part of town and get robbed or beaten up, should I blame someone else? Fuck no.

Why should women be any less responsible for their own safety than anyone else is?

Huge difference there, Sparky.

Just deserts ...that's what you said That means deserved .... no nuance involved !and it's not about women protecting themselves it's about the morality of men ...And no if you fall off a cliff it's your fault if you get mugged it's the muggers . Bad part of town ....MMM your views expressed in other threads would lead to almost everywhere being a bad part of town . Now stop trying to weasel out of the things you have said and stop shifting blame onto the victims of crime . Your expressed opinions of the nature of the society you want to live in mean we would all have to be be sober,straight , better armed and quicker on the draw than the 'criminals' . Trust me ...... you aren't

Right, she does not deserve to be raped, but if she is raped she justly deserved what happened to her as a function of her own bad judgment and behavior.

The phrase "deserves to be raped" is different than the phrase "got what she deserves."

The presumption is not that by becoming voluntarily intoxicated that she deserves to be raped, merely that should she be raped while in that voluntarily accepted state of helplessness, her actions, undertaken with her consent and intent, mitigate any complaint that she might have about what happens to her while she has chosen to make herself helpless. What one might "deserve" to have happen and whether one deserves what happens are two entirely different things. One is future tense, one is past tense. I refer only to the past tense. If you do something stupid, you deserve what happens to you because your stupidity contributed to or caused what happened to you. That doesn't mean that prior to doing something stupid, you deserve to have something happen to you.

Getting drunk is not stupid. Getting drunk in strange company is stupid. Getting drunk, going home with a stranger and engaging in sexual foreplay is so egregiously stupid that you should not have the excuse "I was drunk and didn't know what I was doing" available as a claim against the actions of others. It's bad public policy to encourage egregiously stupid behavior. Its good public policy to say that if you engage in egregiously stupid behavior, society is not going to bail you out or make you whole, because public policy demands that you learn from your egregiously stupid behavior not do do that again.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Right, she does not deserve to be raped, but if she is raped she justly deserved what happened to her as a function of her own bad judgment and behavior.

Do you ever actually read the bullshit you write?

[Thinking Aloud]

Right, she does not deserve to be raped, but if she is raped she justly deserved what happened to her as a function of her own bad judgment and behavior.

Do you ever actually read the bullshit you write?

It's abundantly clear that apparently no-one else does either, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be going round in circles like it is.

[Pappa]

Seth, in a previous post you also said that the guy should not be prosecuted. Even if the woman "deserved it for her own idiocy" how would the guy not also deserve to go to prison for raping her?

[Thinking Aloud]

Ugh.

[MrJonno]

Due to biology only men can truely innitiate sex so the burden of determining consent is on them

Oh, I agree, but the point is that when some hottie gets tanked at the bar, rubs herself all over you at the bar, consents to go home with you, consents to getting naked with you, consents to stroking your cock as you finger her pussy and then doesn't object to being fucked, that's consent. The point is that she's not allowed to wake up in the morning wondering where she is and who you are and claim "rape" just because she doesn't remember giving consent while she was voluntarily intoxicated.

It's fine if she wants to get shit-faced, but that shouldn't be an aggravating factor in a claim of "date rape" it should be a mitigating factor.

"Your honor, the alleged victim in this case voluntarily got herself drunk, voluntarily went with the defendant to his apartment, voluntarily undressed, voluntarily got into bed with him and voluntarily submitted to his sexual advances. The fact that she was drunk off her ass and doesn't remember any of it doesn't mean that consent was not duly given at the time. My client has a right to rely upon her representations of consent given at the time as permission for his sexual activities, notwithstanding the alleged victim's later, remorse-driven, after-the-fact claim that she was incompetent to give permission.

No one forced her to drink alcohol and no one forced her to have sex against any manifest and reasonably evident objection by her. She is responsible for herself and for revoking what can be reasonably construed to be consent to sexual intercourse given previously. If she fails to do so because she has rendered herself stuporous through a voluntary act, the burden is not on my client to determine her level of awareness under circumstances where her consent has been previously given or may be rationally inferred from the circumstances, as in this case.

Therefore, the defense asks for a directed verdict of not guilty based on the prosecution's failure to present a prima facie case of sexual intercourse against the will of the alleged victim."

Which is pretty much what happens as rape is usually one persons word against another and there is a presumption of innocence.

[Feck]

Well I'm going to take a stroll and I'm a bit drunk hope I don't get raped ...i'd be safe if I had GUNS....... Seth

[Svartalf]

Remind me never to get drunk with Seth

Weren't we drunk the other night before bed and I was like "I'm going to rape you" and you said "No you're not" and I was like "you're right, I'm not"??!?!.....if me being stoned/drunk gives people an ok to rape me, I'm a walking target.

Yes, you are, even if it doesn't give people the ok. When you get drunk/stoned you are a walking target. The lesson: Don't get drunk/stoned with people you cannot trust with your life...or your body.

And if you fail in this common-sense self-protection adult behavior, why should anyone, including society, have any sympathy for you?

And that's why I own a shot gun, glock, pepper spray, and a knife.

I honestly pity the fool that tries to attack me. I'll be wearing his testicles as earrings by the end of it.

There's hardly a better place one could wish to hang the family jewels, is there?

[Seth]

Seth, in a previous post you also said that the guy should not be prosecuted. Even if the woman "deserved it for her own idiocy" how would the guy not also deserve to go to prison for raping her?

Because, in the scenario I suggest, it's not rape. It's consensual sex where the woman simply forgot that she consented because she was too drunk to remember what she did the night before. In such cases the presumption of innocence applies to the defendant, and what's more, her intoxication should not be used against him, it should mitigate any claim of non-consensual sex, because if the girl can't remember whether she gave consent, she can't truthfully say that she did NOT give consent, and the presumption must be that she did give consent, because she went with the man voluntarily and was voluntarily intoxicated.

Of course, if she didn't give consent, or objected to the intercourse and the man went ahead anyway, that is rape.

But for a woman to wake up in the morning, find she's been fucked and then claim that she was raped merely because she doesn't remember giving permission is a grave injustice and bad public policy.

That's why not getting blitzed out of your mind and then placing yourself in a potential sexual situation is a very bad idea.

[Seth]

Well I'm going to take a stroll and I'm a bit drunk hope I don't get raped ...i'd be safe if I had GUNS....... Seth

Well, not really, because it's a criminal offense to possess a firearm when you're intoxicated. Pepper spray is another matter.

[Seth]

Due to biology only men can truely innitiate sex so the burden of determining consent is on them

Oh, I agree, but the point is that when some hottie gets tanked at the bar, rubs herself all over you at the bar, consents to go home with you, consents to getting naked with you, consents to stroking your cock as you finger her pussy and then doesn't object to being fucked, that's consent. The point is that she's not allowed to wake up in the morning wondering where she is and who you are and claim "rape" just because she doesn't remember giving consent while she was voluntarily intoxicated.

It's fine if she wants to get shit-faced, but that shouldn't be an aggravating factor in a claim of "date rape" it should be a mitigating factor.

"Your honor, the alleged victim in this case voluntarily got herself drunk, voluntarily went with the defendant to his apartment, voluntarily undressed, voluntarily got into bed with him and voluntarily submitted to his sexual advances. The fact that she was drunk off her ass and doesn't remember any of it doesn't mean that consent was not duly given at the time. My client has a right to rely upon her representations of consent given at the time as permission for his sexual activities, notwithstanding the alleged victim's later, remorse-driven, after-the-fact claim that she was incompetent to give permission.

No one forced her to drink alcohol and no one forced her to have sex against any manifest and reasonably evident objection by her. She is responsible for herself and for revoking what can be reasonably construed to be consent to sexual intercourse given previously. If she fails to do so because she has rendered herself stuporous through a voluntary act, the burden is not on my client to determine her level of awareness under circumstances where her consent has been previously given or may be rationally inferred from the circumstances, as in this case.

Therefore, the defense asks for a directed verdict of not guilty based on the prosecution's failure to present a prima facie case of sexual intercourse against the will of the alleged victim."

Which is pretty much what happens as rape is usually one persons word against another and there is a presumption of innocence.

Not exactly. In some states there are laws against having sex with someone who is "incapacitated," whether by alcohol or drugs or merely because they are mentally defective. The mentally defective part is reasonable enough, it ought to be illegal to have sex with a girl who has the mental capacity of a three year old, but as for drugs or alcohol, or even SLEEP, I think it ought to be up to the girl to keep herself sober and out of such situations where her drunken consent might be reasonably mistaken as valid.

It's difficult tell if someone is "incapacitated" by alcohol or whether they are just tipsy, and the presumption should be that getting drunk isn't an excuse to claim you were raped.

[Seth]

Right, she does not deserve to be raped, but if she is raped she justly deserved what happened to her as a function of her own bad judgment and behavior.

Do you ever actually read the bullshit you write?

No, because I don't write bullshit, although you do, constantly.