When is rape not rape?

[Seth]

Don't get drunk with anybody you aren't willing to have inside you while you're unconscious is my advice.

Well.. this certainly sheds new light on the term 'drinking buddy'.

Don't drink with your mates unless you want them inside your cozy stiffly and proper. Oi! :S

If Seth hang out with people like Seth, I can understand why he'd be worried.

Please. Making a philosophical statement about personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of your bad actions and not blaming others for them is hardly an indication that I like to have sex with comatose drunks. I don't go out with drunks. I don't even associate with drunks, and I certainly wouldn't fuck a drunk because I find drunkenness to be an extreme turnoff. I like my sex partners to be able to feel and enjoy the experience and remember it the next morning.

I find the notion that a woman can get drunk, flirt with a guy, go home with him, neck and pet and fondle, get naked and then can cry "rape" and charge the guy criminally for doing what he was invited to do merely because the woman claims the next morning that she was was "too drunk" to know what she was doing to be a reprehensible and egregiously wrong miscarriage of justice against the man. Women shouldn't get drunk and turn themselves over to strangers to be cared for in sexualized situations and expect that they aren't going to get fucked. It's just that simple. I believe in personal responsibility and acceptance of the consequences of one's actions without complaint and certainly without making a criminal complaint against an act that was the result of an invitation to have sex that was consummated in spite of the fact that the permission was given by a drunken woman.

Don't get sloppy drunk and go home with people you can't trust. Pretty simple rule really, and I fail to understand why society should facilitate or protect anyone against the consequences of violating that rule. It's bad public policy because it encourages irresponsible behavior. If you get drunk and get fucked when you really didn't want to get fucked, suck it up, acknowledge that it was YOUR FAULT for losing control and turning your body over to someone else for their pleasure and enjoyment, and get on with your life while resolving not to do such stupid things again. Don't blame anyone else for your bad judgment.

[Seth]

I hope if Seth ever gets drunk, someone is there to stick a broomstick up his arse.

And that's precisely why I very rarely get drunk, and if I do, I do it with company that I can trust not to do so, and I NEVER do it in public, I do it within the confines of my own home. That's how actual responsible adults conduct themselves.

If you get so drunk with people who might stick a broomstick up your arse that they stick a broomstick up your arse, you deserve to have a broomstick stuck up your arse and you ought not complain about it to anyone, most especially not the police. Consider it a life lesson in personal responsibility.

[Seth]

If you get drunk or stoned and hand the care of your body over to someone else, it shouldn't be rape, it should be just desserts for your own stupidity.

Voluntary intoxication on the part of the alleged victim should be an affirmative defense to a charge of rape in court.

This is seriously insane, driven I'm sure from a male perspective of rape.

Ya think? How about it driven from the perspective of people ought to be responsible for themselves and accept the consequences of their bad judgments without complaining about it?

For this to be a universal principle you would have to widen it to include ALL crime, so getting drunk with someone means they can then commit any crime they like, cannibalism? fraud?[/quote]

Pretty much. Why should society protect people who voluntarily intoxicate themselves and throw themselves on the mercy of anyone who happens to come along? Stupidity should always be its own reward. Society would be much better off if people were afraid to get so drunk that they might lose the ability to care for and defend themselves, thus putting them at risk of rape, robbery and assault that they have no recourse in the law for. We wouldn't have so much drunken disorder now would we? People would drink responsibly and moderately, knowing that the law isn't going to protect them if they intoxicate themselves into a stupor in public and they get robbed or raped in the process.

What's wrong with society demanding that people act responsibly and prudently and that they accept the consequences of their bad actions without complaint?

[Seth]

If you get drunk or stoned and hand the care of your body over to someone else, it shouldn't be rape, it should be just desserts for your own stupidity.

Voluntary intoxication on the part of the alleged victim should be an affirmative defense to a charge of rape in court.

This is seriously insane, driven I'm sure from a male perspective of rape.

For this to be a universal principle you would have to widen it to include ALL crime, so getting drunk with someone means they can then commit any crime they like, cannibalism? fraud?

I thought Seth was extreme in his views - unpleasantly so - but not quite loony fringe. Now we really know he is best ignored and I for one won't be responding to anything he posts. His response is truly disgraceful.

Yeah? And you're momma's ugly.

Get over yourself how about and act like an adult.

[Seth]

I'm glad everyone around here is starting to get a proper picture of the true Seth. I can let you in on a secret - it's not the most disgusting thing I have ever heard him say.

And your momma's fat and ugly!

[Seth]

Remind me never to get drunk with Seth

Weren't we drunk the other night before bed and I was like "I'm going to rape you" and you said "No you're not" and I was like "you're right, I'm not"??!?!.....if me being stoned/drunk gives people an ok to rape me, I'm a walking target.

Yes, you are, even if it doesn't give people the ok. When you get drunk/stoned you are a walking target. The lesson: Don't get drunk/stoned with people you cannot trust with your life...or your body.

And if you fail in this common-sense self-protection adult behavior, why should anyone, including society, have any sympathy for you?

[Seth]

He'll be wanting you all to dress in a full body burka next, because obviously he can't be trusted to not exploit and abuse you, you vessel of sin.

Yes, Seth's opinion is akin to Sheikh Hilali's, the mufti of Australia, who - speaking about rape - said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park and the cats come and eat it -- whose fault is it? The cats or the uncovered meat?"

Makes perfect sense.

I diverge from the Sheikh in that a person can dress however they choose, they can walk around naked if they like, but they'd damned well better be prepared to defend themselves against someone who wants to victimize them. But this issue is distinct from voluntary intoxication, which is not just uncovering the meat, it's throwing it into the lion's pit voluntarily in a voluntarily defenseless condition.

If you make yourself voluntarily defenseless, why should you expect anyone else to defend you? It's your body, take care of it and provide for it's safety, because nobody else is tasked with that responsibility but you. Period.

[Seth]

I've known Seth for a long time, I was the first person to get into it with him on RDF when he just joined up, and I think you might be selling him short. He often does this kind of thing - argues a point he doesn't believe to be true for reasons of his own. Most people just call him a troll or ignore him.

Or they act like rational adults and defend their position.

[pErvinalia]

There's a difference between getting drunk, and getting drunk and being a sleaze. You didn't make that distinction in your statement that got everyone riled up. If you want to make that distinction, then make it clearly.

Ahh scrap that. I see the post you were replying to was specifically referring to date rape.

Further EDIT: Regardless of all that, you still made a repugnant statement by saying someone deserves to be raped if they get too drunk. No one deserves to be raped regardless of what they do. They do need to take some personal responsibility though.

[Thinking Aloud]

I thought Seth's original statement was perfectly clear.

[Seth]

There's a difference between getting drunk, and getting drunk and being a sleaze. You didn't make that distinction in your statement that got everyone riled up. If you want to make that distinction, then make it clearly.

Ahh scrap that. I see the post you were replying to was specifically referring to date rape.

Further EDIT: Regardless of all that, you still made a repugnant statement by saying someone deserves to be raped if they get too drunk. No one deserves to be raped regardless of what they do. They do need to take some personal responsibility though.

I didn't say anyone "deserves to be raped." I said that if one gets voluntarily intoxicated and leaves oneself in the care of strangers and gets raped (or robbed) as a result, it would be "just desserts" for acting irresponsibly.

That's substantially different from saying that a drunk deserves to get raped. Of course I don't expect you to be able to comprehend that distinction since you have never shown the ability to make nuanced distinctions, much less nuanced arguments, in my experience.

[pErvinalia]

Your momma's an astronaut.

[Feck]

desserts in the sense of 'things deserved' has been used in English since at least the 13th century. A citation in which it is linked with 'just' comes from 1599, in Warning Faire Women:

so where the nuance ? maybe the nuance was in the misspelling ?

[MrJonno]

I think I prefer to live in a society where no matter how stupid you are you don't get murdered or raped, a world where no one is ever stupid isnt going to be one containing human beings

I hate it when people say 'if you are careful you will be ok', my level of care going anywhere is look both side of the roads when I cross and look out for dog shit on the pavement. If you need more of a level of care to be safe there its best to go somewhere else

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

Someone being too drunk or otherwise intoxicated to say 'no' should never be a defense - a rape in such circumstances is not an expected result of becoming intoxicated as it occurs, firstly, in a minority of cases and secondly, it occurs as the result of a decision made by another individual (the rapist). In any case, the only defenses to accusations of rape should be "I didn't do it" or "It was consensual", not "She didn't say no". I'm not actively objecting to being assaulted at the present moment, but if someone burst in and punched me they couldn't get away with "Well, he didn't say no".